Behind The Benefit Bashing Headlines Lies A Nasty Ideology That Is Not Confined To The Daily Mail

mustard-tree-protest

A protest was held outside Manchester homelessness charity Mustard Tree yesterday over their involvement with workfare. (h/t @gajagwyn)

There was a time when policies to send sick or disabled claimants on workfare, or sanction the benefits of lone parents, would have been met with horror by the electorate.  There have always been grumblings about the social security system, as with any other institution, but unemployment was once seen as a personal tragedy caused by wider economic failings, not a personal failing caused by laziness or the wrong attitude.

This change in public opinion did not happen by accident.  Just like immigration can be used to whip up and divide sections of the population, so can the social security system.  The implanting of the idea that somebody is getting something you aren’t, even if this isn’t really true, is an age old technique.  The grass on the other side of the valley is probably not greener, we learn that as children, but are still deceived by it.

You can see this at work in the comments made online during the broadcast of programmes like Benefits Street: “look, he’s got a chair, I work 4000 hours a week and can’t afford a chair.  Bastard.”  Of course this can’t be true.  It is virtually impossible to be better off on benefits than in work and most people understand this really.  People may appear jealous of those with a life so broken they find themselves queuing outside the off licence first thing in the morning, but they don’t generally want to trade places with them.

Behind the benefit bashing headlines however much more insidious ideas have been at work that have not come from the front pages of the Daily Mail.  The flawed notion that work is always good for you, in almost any circumstances, has become a medical consensus despite the evidence that shows that it isn’t true.  The belief that young people are idle and unemployable, and that only unpaid or forced work experience will fix them, is just as embedded within the Labour Party as on the Tory front benches.  The debate about poverty is no longer about reshaping society, but about reshaping individuals to teach them not to be poor anymore.  And work, meaning waged work for an employer, because all other forms of work no longer count, is now seen as the end point of any treatment or social care programme.

Without these shifts in attitudes amongst charity bosses, trade union leaders, so-called intellectuals and liberal journalists, then the scrounger rhetoric would have collapsed at the first suicide linked to benefit cuts.  The cartoon headlines have been matched with equal relentlessness by endless reports from anti-poverty charities and pious newspaper columns about how to fix the poor.  Foodbanks that come with conditions to attend bogus self-help schemes are cheered by the liberal press as innovative solutions, when the truth is that they are businesses hoping to profit from poverty.  Bosses of homelessness charities team up with coppers and Tories to warn people not to give money to beggars because it will only encourage them to be poor.  Disability charities and trade unionists alike rub shoulders with filthy profiteers like A4e and G4S at conferences and award ceremonies.

Of course these Ned Flanders wannabes line up to condemn the coarseness of the tabloid attacks on those receiving benefits.  Yet they reproduce the exact same ideology everytime they open their mouths. As such they are equally, if not more dangerous than any acid-tongued viper at the Daily Mail.  They have built the foundation upon which the rest of the poison depends.  A collective delusion has developed amongst the mainstream liberal left that the very worst thing you can do for someone in poverty is to give them money.  No wonder George Osborne has got a smile on his face.

A protest was held outside the Manchester based homelessness charity Mustard Tree yesterday over their involvement in workfare. Please help keep up the pressure online @themustardtree and on facebook.  You can also sign and share the petition.

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201 responses to “Behind The Benefit Bashing Headlines Lies A Nasty Ideology That Is Not Confined To The Daily Mail

  1. philipburdekin

    Cameron and his goonies created this disability hate crime by deciding the groups of people and then knocking shit out of each and everyone of us BUT ISNT IT TIME TO TURN ROUND AND KICK THE SHIT OUT OF THEM. WE MUST DO OR DIE.

  2. “Foodbanks that come with conditions to attend bogus self-help schemes” – Which ones are those?

    • TT foodbanks: Potential recipients are seen first by someone who will ‘assess’ them (a volunteer – non-qualified in most potential issues in at least some, if not many cases). This is to identify if there are issues – perhaps drug/alcohol dependency or domestic violence etc. etc. Once the potential recipient has been asked to discuss their very personal circumstances with this volunteer whom they have just met, whilst being given a cup of tea at the same time to make them feel more comfortable doing so – they will then perhaps taken to be given a bag of food – and in some cases also ‘referred on’.

      They are also, during this process, informed about the christian ethos of the TT-sponsored foodbank and invited to participate further in this should they so wish – again, some may feel obliged to take up this offer and may feel obliged to listen to the ‘spiel’ so as not to appear uncooperative. They will be in some cases faint with hunger and deeply humiliated at having to be there in the first place but will feel they must go along with all of these processes and procedures in order to get the three-days worth of rations for themselves/any dependent children they may have. This after going through a referral process ahead of arriving at the foodbank.

      • shirley – that is not the same as conditionality. The whole reason the Trussell Trust exists is because it is following Christs teachings Matthew 25:35-40 “For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in…And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” Christ also told his followers to preach the gospel to the world.”For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16 It would be nonsensical for a Christian charity to avoid preaching the gospel when they had the opportunity. The Trussell Trust believe, as do I, that the word of God is more precious than any food, even the kind of food which Camoron/Clegg/Milliband & Co enjoy. That does not mean that you have to convert to Christianity in order to receive food when you are in need of it.

        • Also, why does the volunteer need to be qualified just to enquire about any other issues which are affecting the persons health/wellbeing? I would call that trying to identify if there is other area of the persons life with which the Trust can help the person, and treating them as an individual. And drink or drug issues are not usually something which the person has kept secret from strangers until arriving at the foodbank. You are annoyed at too many questions being asked, and yet an undercover reporter posing as someone in need of food was delighted to report that too FEW questions were being asked. The Trussell Trust are therefore to be commended in that they seek neither government funding nor the approval of the secular world, and are seeking to please God instead.

          • Hi fj,

            They don’t just “enquire” in the TT case. They sit down for a 5 minute or so chat, during which the person will feel under obligation to discuss any ‘issues’ – or be vulnerable to saying things they might not wish to say to a complete, non-professional, stranger. If they had gone along to the Samaritans, this would be fine.

            On the basis of the volunteer’s judgement of their circumstances, they can be referred to further services – along with receiving the invitation to consider religious support. This does not seem to be the unconditional giving out of food when thinking of someone (an atheist, say, or an agnostic) who is there, at – presumably – more or less rock bottom – and just wants to get back home again to begin to cook and distribute the food they went to collect, after having had to present themselves and discuss their situation originally to whichever powers that be have referred them with their (i think it’s pink) ‘referral slip’. Many of these people will already have considered whether religion of any stripe would help/support them in their lives and the best time to consider this would not necessarily be when they are in the greatest need – but we might differ on this one.

            The meeting for potential volunteers i went to when unemployed – which was partly with the idea of perhaps being able to collect some necessary food if it got to that point ever, without having to face the self-referral process, at the same time as volunteering for something worthwhile and due to feeling strongly about the need for people to be able to eat. I couldn’t imagine being one of these ‘meet and greeters’ having to ask people about their circumstances though, nor imagine ever going there again, even in very dire need – as a ‘customer’ – for all of the above reasons. I knew that the foodbank would be church-run but didn’t for some reason connect this with “preaching the gospel” to the hungry.

            I’m not sure the whole reason the tt exist is as you say, unfortunately. Their rep.came to the meeting I went to as the foodbank was just getting set up – they came with samples of branding/complete with logos etc. and said that everything must be done in a ‘uniform’ way as per the organisation – seemed to be very corporate at the same time as very christian.

            • Well shirley, surely a 5 minute chat isnt too much? The person is vulnerable, yes, but so what the TT didnt make them that way and is only trying to identify any issues which they might be able to seek out advice for on behalf of the person, not claiming to be experts themselves. The samaritans would be appropriate if the person was feeling suicidal but then again talking to anybody sympathetic to their plight could well help in my opinion. The religious specifically Christian support is always going to be offered in an unashamedly Christian organistion, as Christ did not say, “preach the gospel to a select few who have sought you ought for that specific purpose” It is a Christian’s Christ-given and Christ-bound duty to preach the Good News ie Gospel and we are to preach it as Christ did, not as a theory which may or may not be true but as fact. Whether 99.99999% or more of the people to whom we preach refuse our message as fact, or whether none of the people at all to whom we preach it accept it, we must still continue to preach it, and God will not blame us for someone’s non-conversion to Christianity, because at least we tried, even if as in your case the person to whom we spoke considered it to be a nuisance and was only interested in getting food and getting it back home. It is most certainly an unconditional giving out of food though, as if it were conditional then they would have imposed on you further than that brief few minutes chance to speak to you about the Lord Jesus, and they did not force you show that you were paying any attention to it.
              A pastor once said to his congegation that the evil one lifts you up to let you fall, and God brings you down, to lift you up. Sometimes, the message of Salvation is just what someone needs to lift them up when they have fallen on hard times, and although in your case it did not apply, in some cases it will, and the Trust would be neglectful in their Christian obligation if they did not offer that message to all those who came to the foodbank.
              The reason that they wish everything to be done in a uniform way as per the organisation is because the foodbank is being run under the guidance of the Trust and if there are variations in the branding then people will be confused about what the guidelines are. The Trussell Trust is run by evangelical Christians and therefore you perhaps thought Church-run meant run by non-evangelical Christians, but that is why evengelical Christians are called that, because they will preach the Gospel as fervently as they are able in this so-called Christian country.
              There is nothing wrong with a Christian organisation being “corporate”. Many extremely successful businesses have been founded by Christians who have corporate tithed ie given a tenth of their corporate income to their particular Christian church across the centuries and many philanthropical projects have been paid for via their prosperity.
              The Trussell Trust was started in Bulgaria: “Carol and Paddy Henderson founded The Trussell Trust in 1997 based on a legacy left by Carol’s mother, Betty Trussell. Moved to help forgotten people, The Trussell Trust’s initial Bulgaria projects focussed on improving conditions for the 60+ children sleeping at Central Railway Station in Bulgaria. The Trust’s work soon expanded not only in Bulgaria, but in the UK too…”
              It all began with a baby called Boris – not the overfed, irritating buffoon that we know and despise, but a vulnerable infant.
              I wonder if they ever got all the lies told about them and scepticism about their intentions and purpose when they began in Bulgaria – “But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” Mark 6:4

              • The point I’m trying to make – badly – is that someone being referred For Food and travelling half-way across town – possibly on foot or with small children – will not be expecting to have to engage in a discussion of whether there is a god and if so, what s/he would prefer they do next. I wasn’t talking about myself – I’ve not had ‘the chat’ – either about my potential issues or about the existence of god. (I have had that discussion, but not inside a foodbank). The point was there there will be many people for whom the form of ‘help/support’ could well feel more than they can cope with, which isn’t likely to make sense to a committed christian, particularly of the evangelical variety. That would explain it though. Would that mean that the TT in bulgaria had the chat about salvation with the children they were helping too, before they gave them food to eat?!

              • PS Didn’t you say Rowntrees which was founded by a Quaker, had a scheme which funded your studies?

                • I am sure any children/adults that they were helping would have been told about God’s message at some point, although of course there is the additional language barrier. In Bulgaria, though, there would probably be many chances to speak to the children if they were sleeping rough, and not just the case of someone coming and going as you did. I dont know what you mean by more than they can cope with because if it was more than they could cope with then how would it affect them? The Trussell trust don’t debate whether God exists, that would be philosophy not Christianity, which is about telling people that God does exist and about Christ’s redemption of them and His love for them. Whether people believe that is up to them, it is their choice but as I said, that does not negate the Christian obligation to tell people the Good News at any opportunity – in your case, it was the last thing you wanted to hear as you were tired and depressed, but as I said already, in some cases it may be the very thing people who are tired and depressed want to hear, and a Christian cannot pick and choose in advance which of those foodbank users want to hear God’s message and which do not, and it would be irresponsible and unChristian of them to try.

                • Indeed they did. The ‘Mac’s grant’ – as we knew it – was paid for three years running, due to my mum helping them in their mission to spread peace, and sugary snacks around the world. It was a great help when my grant hadn’t arrived at the start of each year (was on a full grant). But there wasn’t any requirement to discuss pacifism with management at the factory before receiving it – and I wasn’t even hungry at the time. They paid for the family’s extensive dental treatment too (not really).

                  After applying for the grant for me,my mum continued giving most of the best years of her life to the cause (of picking and packing vast quantities of chocolate) and must have earned the money I received many times over. The job had few, if any, (other) perks, if I remember rightly; it was physically demanding and mind-numbing to name but two – so Rowntree Mackintosh (as was, they became nestle later) got their money’s-worth. I’d (personally) much prefer the Quaker style of spiritual belief over an evangelical version, if given a choice.

                • I went to a meeting for prospective volunteers! I’ve not mentioned my mental state or level of fatigue at the time. It was during a time when I could potentially have needed to be ‘on the receiving end’ of a food parcel though, and not for one second do I think that I’d be alone in finding the approach of being given this form of ‘good news’ difficult whilst hungry, demoralised and not of a religious persuasion (if that were the case) in the hypothetical example I was imagining – based on my own impression/experience, but that is all.

              • Bollocks to foodbanks! There is NO shortage of food in the UK; the shelves are over-flowing, with much produce being sent to landfill and burned. So why the fuck are large sections citizens of one of the richest countries in the world starving! Foodbanks are engineered into being; foodabanks are a man-made* problem.

                * or in the case of Esther McVile, woman-made

                • I have just been asked for money by a man in the city centre who was standing in the middle of a fairly busy pedestrian area & who was – visibly – starving. “I am emaciated”. He said that social services have thrown him out of his house – but whatever the ins and outs of his situation this is unforgivable. He was asking for money to buy a sandwich (more or less outside a pret a manger who will very likely throw away any leftovers due to their food being so ‘freshly made’) – it is like a living nightmare with people walking around who have clearly not eaten for days. (did give him some money; didn’t mention the foodbank/referral ‘possbility’ as he’s almost definitely considering any/all possible options). Not an older man – probably late 20s or mid 30s..

        • Food banks are a direct product of the sustained conditionality inflicted upon the common people by a political elite which in turn supported by the religious elite to keep economic victims in a position of servitude and docility. Not to mention the money that is being made out of this racket. Charity begins and ends at home – not in the hands of the so called high and mighty.

      • “Wickedness behind a mask of pity” strikes again…

        • Shirley – Can’t see a reply button next to your post therefore will have to use someone elses. My reference to Rowntrees related to Christians in successful businesses who faithfully gave corporate tithes to their Church whereas you seemed to imply in a previous post that you thought anything corporate was incompatible with Christianity. It had no relation to whether they were given the chance to talk to you for a few minutes of your life about the company’s current official beliefs (if they have any). Working in a chocolate factory sounds great if you like chocolate, but after a while, even if you like chocolate, it must get you down.
          Aplogies, I misunderstood you earlier, I thought that you had been a one-time foodbank user and then a prospective volunteer. The scenario which you envisage obviously will happen, but so will the opposite reaction ie someone being glad of the Gospel, and I have already explained a Christian’s reasons for telling anyone whenever they have an opportunity (including those who are known to be confirmed atheists or of other religions) to tell them indiscriminately the Gospel ie Good News, just as Jesus did. Our duty is to God in doing this.”And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.” Matthew 10:14 Jesus does not instruct us to avoid speaking the words of Salvation because there might be those who do not want to hear them at any given time.
          Anyway, Shirley, I’m tired arguing. Perhaps I should shake the dust off my feet now and get on with the household chores (I’m a real night-owl, but unlike you I haven’t the gravatar to match!)

          • It’s difficult to explain the effect i think this could have on someone who has had to take the difficult decision to go inside a foodbank, with all that entails. Talking to them about something as emotive as the love of god/meaning of life at that stage might play well with some people; others will be indifferent, but some, unfortunately, will feel this is something that would prohibit them from going a second time should they ever need to. And could cause distress – of course this would not be your intention. As the prime concern of the organisation is Christian giving, i suppose those people will be collateral damage, but asking them to disclose their innermost difficulties, at their most difficult time, just does not make sense and seems unfortunate – to me.

            If someone really needed to talk at that point, it would become evident/there could be an area with leaflets/useful tel. numbers etc., but for me this has no place in the process of giving out food to someone who may have been referred there by a job centre/gp/social service. Of course, i would rather people received food than not but we can agree to disagree about TT and similar businesses. As the food is being donated, I think I’d assumed that there would not be any business element/need to follow a ‘line’..

            The foodbank near to where i live does not ask anyone to complete any forms – they sign their name (I thinkt), collect what they can have pre-ordered, or just collect what they are going to take, and they don’t have to have a conversation with anyone unless they choose to stay and talk. Food donated by the big orange shop but it’s essentially a one-woman operation. She is a person ‘of faith’ but would only discuss this if she felt it was a conversation someone wished to have and it came up. I suppose if there is a belief that what is going to be said can help to feed someone’s soul then it’s not irrational in those terms, but they’re there out of a very material form of need – not looking to be saved. It’s to do with the underlying potential judgement – invariably people in this situation have been through the mill – they will be more receptive, in some cases, to being converted.

            • shirley – again, if we tried to weed out all those we thought would find our message “distressing” under certain circumstances, we would be failing in our committment to the spreading of Christ’s messages. The human spirit is strong, and even if I was not a Christian and I happened to need a foodbank and it was run by Christians who wanted to give me their “speil” I would tolerate it until I got the food. I cannot forsee it putting me off a second time, because if I was desparate for food my survival instinct would kick in, and I would return. I cannot believe that anyone, however resistant to Christianity or anti-Christian, would starve rather than use an evangelical-run foodbank. We obviously disagree on this. Your assumption that because the food is donated there would not be any business element/need to follow a line is strange. The Red Cross (a secular organisation)take donations and make up food parcels and have a shop (which doesnt use workfare) which sells donated items and is mainly staffed by volunteers but you wouldnt make assumptions that people who are working under public guidance from the Red Cross , as well as directly for the red cross should not follow a “line”. Very few people who are not saved go anywhere “looking to be saved”, but that is why we as Christians must preach the gospel at every opportunity. The “collateral damage” which you mention is not in my opinion any kind of damage, either temporary or lasting.
              The woman whom you mention who has set up the foodbank: Good for her – and good for those who would rather use her foodbank than that of the Trussell Trust. Whether she is a Christian or not is probably irrelevant to most of the users of the foodbank, and irrelevant to me.

          • overburdenddonkey

            fellow
            i must correct you…quakerism is of earthly spirit and entirely different to main stream christainity and cannot be directly compared to it….quakers often meet in silence with no set doctrine, no church (any comfortable space will do) no need for preachers, no being told what is right or wrong, speak when moved to speak, spiritual unity is sought, outside and of our physical presence…no requirement to own a bible, to pray, to sing…a quote from the beano being as valid as a quote from the bible…imv god is not worshipped, human being is celebrated, other quakers may have other ideas….god is everyone on our earthly heaven/bio-sphere… http://www.quakerinfo.org/quakerism/beliefs the main aim is seeking root truth, of human condition and it’s sufferings, as inflicted by others…protesting and acting to relieve all suffering…it’s very difficult to define in 2 dimensional terms…it’s a way of life…the reality is our physical needs met 1st….the idea of having to deserve/earn @ the bidding of others, vitality giving vitals of life is appalling to quakers…words cannot fully describe quakerism and in fact can harm chances of defining it, go to many meetings and one will begin to grasp the essence of quakerism…no one can tell another what god is, any agreement is/can be purely coincidental, self knowledge is an ongoing process…quakers don’t presume to tell others what to believe in/believe…and certainly don’t spread a gospel fixed or otherwise, it’s fluid druid, a journey in being self…ie we’ll give you food and shelter if you act, as if, you believe in god and/or act as if they are christians, there is no behaviourism in quakerism …it sees all human beings as gods…’know ye are god’….’know thy self’…quakerism is a celebration of life, not death….wrath of god type stuff is not appreciated…no one is born (to be judged by others) evil nor good for that matter….10.30 am sunday meetings throughout the uk, not all quakers attend…

            • obd – I don’t know much about quakerism, but Rowntree was a Quaker, and I am inclined to follow the wikipedia definition of it rather than yours ( may/may not address your other points later in the day as I can’t usually be bothered with online arguments:
              “Quakers (or Friends, as they refer to themselves) are members of a family of religious movements collectively known as the Religious Society of Friends. The central unifying doctrine of these movements is the priesthood of all believers,[2][3] a doctrine derived from a verse in the New Testament, 1 Peter 2:9.[4] Many Friends view themselves as members of a Christian denomination. They include those with evangelical, holiness, liberal, and traditional conservative Quaker understandings of Christianity. Unlike many other groups that emerged within Christianity, the Religious Society of Friends has actively tried to avoid creeds and hierarchical structures.[5] As of 2007 there were approximately 359,000 adult members of Quaker meetings in the world.[6]

              Today, slightly less than half of Friends worldwide practice programmed worship[7]—that is, worship with singing and a prepared message from the Bible, often coordinated by a pastor. Around 11% of Friends[8] practice waiting worship (also known as unprogrammed worship)—that is worship where the order of service is not planned in advance, which is predominantly silent, and which may include unprepared vocal ministry from anyone present, so long as it is credible to those assembled that the speaker is moved to speak by God. Some meetings of both styles have Recorded Ministers in their meetings—these are Friends who have been recognised for their gift of vocal ministry.[9]

              The first Quakers lived in mid-17th century England. The movement arose from the Legatine-Arians and other dissenting Protestant groups, breaking away from the established Church of England. The Quakers, especially the ones known as the Valiant Sixty, attempted to convert others to their understanding of Christianity, traveling both throughout Great Britain and overseas, preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Some of these early Quaker ministers were women.[10] They based their message on the religious belief that “Christ has come to teach his people himself,” stressing the importance of a direct relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and a direct religious belief in the universal priesthood of all believers.[11] They emphasized a personal and direct religious experience of Christ, acquired through both direct religious experience and the reading and studying of the Bible.[12] Quakers focused their private life on developing behavior and speech reflecting emotional purity and the light of God.[13]”

            • PS obd – even the link which you post supports my assertion that they are a form of Christianity – they certainly were when Joseph Rowntree was alive (who tithed to his church which is the point I was making to Shirley) It seems that you have made up the rest “fluid druid”????? Quakerism does not see all human beings as gods! That is blasphemy! I think you may be thinking of another religion popular in USA.

              “It is difficult to write a description of Friends beliefs that would be acceptable to all the Quakers in the world today. Quakers all share common roots in a Christian movement that arose in England in the middle of the 17th Century. Today, it is generally true that Friends still adhere to certain essential principles:

              a belief in the possibility of direct, unmediated communion with the Divine (historically expressed by George Fox in the statement, “Christ is come to teach his people himself”); and

              a commitment to living lives that outwardly attest to this inward experience.

              Nonetheless, modern Friends exhibit significant variations in the ways we interpret our traditions and practice our beliefs.

              Nowhere are these differences more marked than in the United States which contains four distinct branches of Friends. In worship, some Friends still practice unprogrammed “silent” meetings where the entire meeting for worship is held in expectant waiting on God, while other Quakers now have programmed services led by a pastor, similar to many Protestant denominations. In belief, some Friends place most emphasis on the authority of Christian Scripture, while others give greater emphasis to the authority of the immediate guidance of the Spirit. This dynamic tension has allowed for a wide range of religious perspectives. For more information, see branches.

              Worldwide, the vast majority of Friends confess an orthodox Christian faith. Friends’ emphasis has always been on the role of the immediate guidance of the Holy Spirit, however, most Friends believe that the Spirit is unchanging and will not contradict itself. On this basis, the Christian Scriptures and tradition are highly esteemed as testimony to God’s relationship with our spiritual ancestors. Crucially, because most Friends consider the Scriptures to be inspired by God, the Bible is helpful in weighing whether new inward guidance comes from the Spirit of God or from another source.”

              • overburdenddonkey

                fellow
                bullshit, you have no idea what you’re talking about….the word of god comes from the mind of human being… ‘The concept of ‘that of God in everyone’, by which each human being is considered both unique and precious, is a key tenet of Quaker belief. Interpreting what or who God is, and how God manifests in individuals, is for personal discernment.’
                http://www.quaker.org.uk/files/a_quaker_view_on_leaflet.pdf

                • obd – “God in everyone” is NOT the same as “everyone is a god”. Because I have God in me does NOT make me God or “a god”. Because I have Christ in me does NOT make me Christ! Because I have the Holy Spirit in me does NOT make me the Holy Spirit!
                  You are the one who is talking manure about Quakerism – your deductions and arguments on the subject are ridiculous. As I said and have shown already by quoting part of it, even the link which you already posted does not support your assertion. I am not going to argue with your further about it, or go to the second link which you have posted, since you have misinterpreted the first link which you yourself posted.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  idiot!

                • Who is this god bloke

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  and a ps you said you’re not going to argue online on this subject well don’t post your erroneous nonsense without expecting a challenge then!!!

              • obd – that’s right, reduce yourself to name-calling when you have lost the argument.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  i can read your posts where you called me ridiculous…’That is blasphemy!’ ie i’m a heretic…and a liar and/or a fool which is what you have implied (and i expect i can find more)..then you have the nerve to accuse me of name calling….how dare you compare my beliefs and practices with main stream christianity tarred with the bible basher brush as you think that this is the legitimate view to hold, it is not…

                • I pointed out and proved via a quote from your link that your “challenge” is recognised as incorrect ie erroneous by wikipedia AND the first link that you yourself posted. Is said I don’t like online arguments and I take part in them reluctantly, and I said that I was not going to argue with you further on that point. I did not call YOU ridiculous – I said “You are the one who is talking manure about Quakerism – your deductions and arguments on the subject are ridiculous”. Whatever beliefs you may hold, and please dont put words in my mouth with “heretic, liar fool” I repeat, QUAKERISM AS IS DESCRIBED AND EXPLAINED ON WIKIPEDIA AND THE LINK WHICH YOU YOURSELF POSTED DOES NOT INVOLVE A BELIEF THAT EVERYONE IS GOD – THAT WOULD BE SEEN BY THEM (AND BY ME WITH MY BELIEFS) AS BLASPHEMY.
                  I am not comparing YOUR beliefs and practices with mainstream Christianity, I am saying that your beliefs are not compatible with the links which you have posted to Quakerism or with wikipedias definition of Quakerism, which is defined as a type of Christianity. And this is hopefully my last reply to you on this matter.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  i posted 2 ROUNDED links that contextually give all the info required, how you choose to disseminate ie interpret that info chop it up cut it to suit your arguments is up to you…leaving defining/qualifying sentences out does not make your argument valid…like i say you don’t post unless you can’t handle a challenge…’bullshit, you have no idea what you’re talking about….the word of god comes from the mind of human being… ‘The concept of ‘that of God in everyone’, by which each human being is considered both unique and precious, is a key tenet of Quaker belief. …>>>Interpreting what or who God is, and how God manifests in individuals, is for personal discernment…….<<<<<’ ie this is how i look @ it…no one can tell me or doctrine me any differently, I CHOOSE no one else…. link posted above… https://www.quaker.org.uk/outreach-leaflets

                • Quaker made oats. I’ve seen the box

                • obd – Yes, I can now confirm that my last post was my last post (or technically my second last post) regarding the matter.

                • bob- thank you for lightening the mood – at least for me you have

                • Yes Thank “God” for that!!! amazes me how arguments around ‘God’ whatever ones perception of  ‘God’ may be or not be, can take over from the disturbing subject of this blog……. As for who or what God is or is not…. I expect IDS could fill us all in on this with his Messianic delusions and Prophecies of how he can change the world,,,,,,,,,,

                • overburdenddonkey

                  loo
                  i do post often on the disturbing subject of state abuse, i make a point of doing so…

                • Re:  ‘I do post often on the disturbing subject of state abuse’…. I know you do  and good on you, we rely on you to do so…..,wondering if  you might have misunderstood what I said I was being ironic about the couple getting tied up about the God/Quaker food bank conversation…My remarks were meant to be tongue in cheek!!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  loo
                  i’m saying were all gods…that’s all…we live, we die end of…what we do in this period to stop exploitation/suffering is whats important….helping the vulnerable with words is futile as one cannot eat them…what makes people vulnerable ie having limited access to vitality giving vitals of life is what makes people vulnerable….the being thankful to others for natural rights is sick…

                • I agree with all of that….. Im not religious really but I do believe in some form of spirituality, in that the good we do in life, the love and care we transmit, ultimately is picked up and even if in some minute way affects us, effects change.  and in that way we can all have some sense of godness…… x p.s, please reply to “loobitzH@yahoo.co.uk” not “loobitz@hotmail.com” Linda Hansard

    • GEOFF REYNOLDS

      “i will probably, not here to witness the first prosecutions of the judiciary and doctors who plotted the deaths of us, the weakest and most vulnerable in society”
      Please remember that we always loved you, despite our short, laboured time on this earth……………………………..

      • Geoff, I can only reiterate my other posts in urging you not to give up – there is always the chance of something good just around the corner in life, but you have to be alive to have a chance of it.

      • Every where I read things about DWP/Atos/Maximus/Poverty/Disability/Tory Crimes on the web its usually accompanied by a comment from Geoff Reynolds! You are there doing your best when others do not try….I’m sure you can find the strength to continue…Goodfella.

  3. Confidence Tricksters Sinking Sand Foundation – CTSSF.

  4. Good post JV,

    Do not think it is a collective delusion of the mainstream liberal left but a politically conscious means to an end …

  5. ” the politics of envy ” is chanted whenever anyone complains about elite wealth ( and power) silly me o thought it was about justice
    And yet the maxim of ” work hard son and one day you will have a big fast car and big house like Lord Moneybags ”
    sounds very much to me like er
    .the politics of envy

  6. http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/feb/17/nottingham-fighting-food-poverty-social-eating

    Woman collects wasted food and cooks for poor

    Bizarre note

    Guardian Article supported by

    ROCKEFELLER ??

  7. Its so apparent why the Tories are propelling their agenda and hate rhetoric against the unemployed the disabled and the working poor. There arent enough jobs to go around for one, so carving up the public sector and then handing out huge contracts to the big corps to plug the gaps is more that it seems. for one as we are all aware, the jobs now being created are part time and or zero hours contracts. This allows the gov to spew the lies about the growing economy, and add fuel to their propaganda machine against the working classes. The big corps benefit from this carve up of course, but what this also allows is the the gov to take full control of anyone protesting. With Universal Credit, they have written into law that they can basically mandate anyone claiming benefits to follow their orders, and have sanctions and the threat of them to coerce people. By getting the unemployed the sick the disabled and the employed poor to sign claimant commitments, they basically sign away their right to protest. with all their spare time filled with job searches, or working two or 3 pt jobs, with the ever constant fear of being made destitute, along with the loss of self confidence, self belief and hope being stripped away, when will they have time to gather and protest!!!

    Thats the point… they wont, or they will be too afraid to..

    Now the gov is bringing in online Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for anyone a work coach may think shows signs of mental illness and the chances are that this will become one of their voluntary mandates, as nowadays, you can be mandated to take up voluntary work experience etc, or be sanctioned etc…. All the info will be stored, to me it sounds like psychological profiling to be used in a coercive way against anyone who displays any sign of dissent etc…… If I recall, they even call this ‘Treatment’ just reminds me of 1984 and WW2.

    god help us all…..

    • ‘Adviser’ made a clear attempt to use the term passive-aggressive around 15 months ago when it instinctively felt like there was something (additional) behind the assertion (cogs could be seen spinning, slowly behind dead-eyes). The whole tone of how this was dropped into the conversation was designed to provoke something which would QED confirm the prejudice/make the label stick. There was an air of tentativeness and yet, hope (it could be a stick to beat with).

      When asked – politely – for an explanation as to why this was being raised as a possible cause for concern, the reply was a slightly less confident, “… you were disagreeing with me …. in a too-quiet voice”. This could be one definition of ‘passive-aggressive’ behaviour (?) – it could also define extreme stress/terror – but it does not a diagnosis make and they’re ‘Advisers’ – allegedly – not psychologist/psychotherapists – yet. At the same time as trying even harder to remain calm and not show too much emulsion/fast-forwarding to where this might go if not successfully refuted there and then – i was imagining was some kind of ‘body-language correction Programme’ … They then followed the accusation up by wondering aloud (though not stating it directly …) that perhaps this was how I had been coming across at interviews and it could explain why I did not have a job …. I’d not been invited to any interviews at this point during that period of unemployment, but that was never the point & the ‘adviser’ was new to me on that day – so it was all going really well. Don’t think there was a course to mandate anyone to “get their mind right” at that time – yet – but they were itching to score bonus points and get some ‘revenge’ for the daring to disagree/not backing down.

      • This is the training all advisors and coaches are given: according to this document. Please read and circulate……..it seems to fit right in with what you have described,…. worryingly!

        https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/216630/response/539088/attach/3/DWP%20EWTK…pdf

        • Exactly this. The (slow) coach was looking for an intervention – but it was as though she had only just seen the toolkit and wasn’t confident to use it – & decided to try anyway. I could have ended up on the pilot learning how to become less passive/aggressive and succeed in the world of work ….

          This is most definitely not support though – the accusation was very much a defensive/gleeful accusation (maybe I was being passive/aggressive – under provocation – or maybe I was just very, very scared which was usual at fortnightly signings/meetings & in between). The conversation – such as it was – would have been to do with non-use of universal sanction match (almost certainly) but stating that I probably didn’t have a job due to my uppity attitude was said as a very nasty sideswipe, designed to undermine/provoke (it was way more passive/aggressive than anything said up to that point – so they’d done their homework to some degree). It was very shocking as these random acts of aggression are – even when they are not the first one experienced in there. As she couldn’t use the straight term ‘aggressive’ in relation to my not doing what she wanted, and challenging the veracity of what was being said instead, she opted to try this – & I am sure that this will only increase/be further written in to JCP- practice.

        • That is a disgraceful document, allowing the untrained to judgements on mental health when even trained psychiatrists rarely agree. Psychiatry has only been in existence for a couple of hundred years and is subject to whims and fashions that are later exposed as ignorant mumbo-jumbo. Homosexuality was considered a sociopathic personality disorder until 1973 so psychiatry and it’s lesser sibling psychology are best regard with scepticism. Unfortunately we live in a time when psychiatry appears to want to medicalise pretty much all human behaviour. The most important thing to realise is unhappiness is usually the result of a person’s circumstances, it is not the same as depression and cannot be treated by pills or blethering nonsense.

      • Wish I had been there – I would have asked if she was hard of hearing or a bit deaf lol – it would be great to be able to say what you feel without having the fear of being sanctioned. How do these people sleep at night?

    • CBT is a cheap which is why government loves it.. it has a temporary benefit but it doesnt change the underlying problem..it just makes you temporarly happy for the crap to hit you..I have been through CBT, They start with the premise YOU are WRONG, then the go through changing how you feel so that you can fit in with society.. for some yet cbt can work.. but when you are being bullied, insulted by society and dwp no way of changing your thought patterns will help.. all it will do it try to make you into a drone.. yes sir may i have 6 more beatings.. i must deserve it because it is MY fault.. first cbt only lasts 6 weeks.. then you need a topper up.. someone to talk too. its CULT.. when we are being bullied every day.. nothing will change us as its an external factor not us.. but cbt is sold on the “fact” is it YOU

    • GEOFF REYNOLDS

      £32 is the value of my life per week, surely my death would aid others to prosper…………
      Never once did i complain to my doctor, a life too much to sustain……..

      • Geoff.
        You know that B*ST**D IDS would agree with you. He would use your money for “A” breakfast for himself, and prosper.

  8. ” WEBPAGE NOT AVAILABLE ” on johnny void blogs

    You went missing for a while there

  9. Trouble is, it really is possible to be better off on benefits than in work but not because the welfare state is too generous but because of the rise of precarious work that pays insufficiently well to cover the expense of privatised utilities and housing costs. The report that the government like to cite in support of the belief that “work is good for you” contains several caveats, not least that the “Beneficial health effects depend on the nature and quality of work” and that a significant minority of the population actually experience detrimental health effects from being in work.

    Ultimately the solution lies in improving the quality of available work, reducing the cost of living and learning to value the contributions to society made outside the framework of selling labour to a profit seeking corporation.

    More could be done to reduce the welfare bill by bringing back rent controls and building more social housing than could ever be achieved by punishing the poor.

    • I wholeheartedly agree, Dave Pleb Murphy. It is true that minimum wage work does not pay (even if working full-time) to cover hyped-up private sector rents, let alone anything else.

      The problem is that people have lowered their standards by renting rooms instead of flats, or keep living with mum – despite them working! There was a time when work meant being able to afford your own place & leave mum’s. But instead of asking; what happened to those days, they watch Property Ladder shows & dream of buying their home…

      By doing so they have accepted that wages are not meant to pay enough to cover flat rents & that charging as much as possible when ‘buying to let’ is acceptable behaviour. These are lessons in “oh, this sucks but there’s nothing we can do” helplessness & tacit acceptance of banks’ financial abuse.

      Hence the hatred of those who seem to refuse to work for shit wages, or enslave themselves to banks for the rest of their lives.

      Rent controls & council housing for all would of course end this idiocy. But it won’t happen until people realise that – actually, this sucks & there’s a lot we can do about it!

      • Not forgetting hyped up supposed ‘affordable’ rents charged by local authorities and housing associations. My housing association rent increase is £4 this year, and was a similar amount last year. The weekly rent is now just over £80 a week, but if it had gone up in line with inflation since the time I moved in, it would be £65 a week – a far more affordable rent.

        The issue most definitely is about poverty pay, and no political party, (with perhaps the exception of the Greens) seems to care about the poorest paid. How about a minimum wage of £10 an hour? Based on a 37 hour week works out a £19,240 per annum – hardly a fortune, and about right for a single person in a base line job. And Labour are offering us an £8 an hour national minimum wage by 2020!

        Sadly I have had several ‘debates’ with people getting paid NMW who seem to think that better wages can’t be afforded. Okay, maybe some small business can’t afford to employ them, and that’s tough, but I can’t afford to have lots of things… But when it comes to companies like large supermarket chains and the fast food companies, they could afford to pay their staff a minimum of £10 an hour and still be viable. This kind of thing will never be mandated by any government, and if workers want this, then it is ordinary workers who have to start to believe in themselves and their worth.

        Joining a union is a start, but beware, not all unions are equal, and not all operate directly in the interests of their membership. Think in terms of the IWW or SolFed if you want a real union that is run by workers for workers.

    • Work does indeed not pay.

      Firms are the biggest tax avoidance scheme, called
      salary sacrifice scheme,
      where paid part wages / part expenses (admin charges deducted).

      This means low waged fall out of the
      welfare state and state pension scheme
      as are paid below the LOWER EARNINGS LEVEL
      of National Insurance
      so do not gain automatic National Insurance Credits
      and are not paying NI contributions.

      A tax Barrister informs that firems thus avoid paying billions of pounds of tax by firms not paying National Insurance nor PAYE tax for each such employee.

      The flat rate state pension for those retiring from next year,
      pays NIL STATE PENSION for less than 10 years National Insurance history, whereas now you get some state pension from 1 year NI RECORD.
      Se why at end, in my WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT section, at:
      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/state-pension-at-60-now

      The raised retirement age pushed huge numbers of men and women to be liable for the flat rate state pension, that is not more but less or even nil for life.

      Some people are already getting forecasts for retiring next year of a mere £55 per week (when state pension is now £113.10 per week) even if have 35 years NI history, from the op out from State Earnings Related Pensions Scheme (abolished from next year so no further contributions).

      http://www.anastasia-england.me.uk

  10. This post is brilliant. It’s easy to protest against the nasty Tories. But it takes confidence and mental energy to point out the extent to which the nice liberals accept Tory premises, only cavilling over their methods. I really hate those hypocrites. We’ve got to speak up whenever the occasion arises. We’ve got to say what we really mean (such as, What’s so great about work?) even when it seems heretical from a left-wing perspective. In the long run, the truth will always be helpful (I hope).

  11. overburdenddonkey

    spot on jv, typified here they want it all ways…. http://wingsoverscotland.com/buyers-remorse/

  12. facebook’s ‘suggested link’ under a share of this, was to an article about atlas shrugged. funny that eh?

  13. You might know perfectly well how to fish, but sometimes you just need a sodding fish!

    As a born-again atheist I spent too many years in church. Growing up I was part of the group: preacher’s son, local lad. When I went back in a different city my family and I became the class project. Why? Because we were an unmarried low-income family living in a council house on the ‘rough’ estate. Every church I visited I saw the same token, patronised poor family who everyone was so bloody Christian about.

    With the demolition of social security, all that stands between you and starvation is often someone who clearly thinks of you as a lesser being. They police their supply of bags of tinned tomatoes and UHT milk like it’s methadone and treat you like a junkie.

  14. GEOFF REYNOLDS

    ……………………Sitting on the edge of one of the highest cliffs in the uk with a doble barrelled shotgun in my mouth, gazing at the photographs of my children, did not make my disability disappear……………
    Scoring zero on my wca is beyond comprehension, my life not worth a damn.

    Killing me is easier than putting right my disability, hurrah for DWP doctrines.

    Put me down now, the burden on the state is prohibiitive……………..

    • philipburdekin

      The country has been turned against it’s own and this coalition will burn in hell.
      Samaritans is a safe and confidential place to talk, 08457909090 email jo@samaritans.org.uk

      • GEOFF REYNOLDS

        …………………it will always remain easier to steal something from somebody who has nothing and depends on everything, than somebody who has everything and depends on nothing……………

        Conservatism in action…………….

        • Yes Geoff, the Tories know the price of everything and the value of nothing. As FELLOW JCP has pointed out, their time is coming but they don’t know it yet. We need YOU. Let the storm pass for a wee while longer, our time is coming.

    • Geoff, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT END IT ALL. IT IS NOT THE ANSWER AND THERE WILL BE RETRIBUTION FOR THOSE BASTARDS AND THE HELP WHICH YOU NEED IN YOUR LIFETIME, I AM CONFIDENT OF THAT. BELIEVE ME WHEN I STATE THEY HAVE SOWN THE WIND, AND THEY WILL REAP THE WHIRLWIND. A STORM IS COMING BUT THEY CANNOT EVEN SEE THE CLOUDS.

    • Your input and effort is appreciated on this site – keep fighting Geoff – you will eventually win.

  15. Reblogged this on Mind the Gap and commented:
    The current government would prefer to turn us against the most vulnerable in society as opposed to confronting the real ‘bad guys’.

  16. Social Vigilantes of the Third Force, a progressive ideological hodgepodge that satisfies and straddles the collective demands of the left and the big society ideals of the right while simultaneous claiming to empower communities.

  17. Jonathan Nicholson

    “Of course these Ned Flanders wannabes line up to condemn the coarseness of the tabloid attacks on those receiving benefits. Yet they reproduce the exact same ideology everytime they open their mouths.”

  18. It has been reported in a newspaper that Nigel Farage has been attacked by activists in his local pub whilst having lunch with his wife and children. The children supposedly ran away in fear???? According to another person who was in the pub Nigel was there alone – now he wants tax payer funded security personnel. Would your first instincts be to protect your children and know where they were? Of course it would. What is he going on about? The other person in the pub said that the activists were a peaceful group in fancy dress. What a joke or another publicity stunt. I know who I believe.

  19. Rachel Reeves, the shadow secretary for work and pensions, has been heavily criticised for some of the language in her recent Guardian interview, specifically “We are not the party of people on benefits. We don’t want to be seen, and we’re not, the party to represent those who are out of work.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/18/rachel-reeves-right-labour-reduce-benefits

    They’ve completely turned their backs on people.the language suggests its peoples fault rather then the system.this completly ignores any sence of reality of peoples lives. tunnel vision Tory properganda,lies, self interest,deciet,greed, has gripped with these shower.

    People like Chipping Norton Set Clarkson can assualt someone put them in A&E and cameron wants him reinstated. Someone in a jobcentre at breaking point did the same what would be the outcome.

  20. GEOFF REYNOLDS

    DWP CONTINUE TO HIDE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THEY HAVE MURDERED

    Date: 06 March 2015

    Anita Bellows

    Dear Anita,

    Thank you for your Freedom of Information request received on 07 February
    2015 . You asked:-

    Esther McVey confirmed during the Work and Pensions Committee
    session on the 4th of February 2015, that DWP conducted 49 peer
    reviews after deaths of claimants, but Chris Hayes said that ‘we have
    found no particular case where, as a direct result of sanctions alone,
    that has led to someone being in that situation’.
    http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evide
    ncedocument/work-and-pensions-committee/benefit-sanctions-policy-
    beyond-the-oakley-review/oral/17970.html
    http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evide
    ncedocument/work-and-pensions-committee/benefit-sanctions-policy-
    beyond-the-oakley-review/oral/17970.html
    I would like to know how many claimants out of the 49 peer reviewed
    cases had received a sanction. This includes previous sanctions and
    sanctions at the time of their death.
    And if it is within the cost limits, the number of sanctions for each
    claimant will also be useful
    .

    It is occasionally necessary to extend the 20 working day time limit for issuing
    a response. In the case of your request, I need to extend the time limit
    because the information requested must be considered under one of the
    exemptions to which the public interest test applies. In this case it is section
    36. This extra time is needed in order to make a determination as to the
    public interest.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/252562/response/625774/attach/html/3/PIT%20letter%20501.pdf.html

  21. What kind of society have we become …a sick and twisted one…..its allmost like a national pastime to demonize the poor and vulnerable in this country thease endless snyde programs on channel4 and 5 just gloating licking there lips at peoples misfurtune I won’t normally watch those programs but I recently watched benefits Briton life on the dole becouse it was in Hastings my home town now Hastings has been destroyed over the last 25 years by Crocked corrupt freemason shyster local councils of both torie and labour Hastings allwayz sinks that much lower when the Tories are in but the bottom line is ……there are no jobs there …there aren’t as in a lot of UK seaside towns there now economic blackspots there no sustainable economy and how thease pigs from this program were allowed to film there is beyond me every other word was benefits ie….he,s cooking a slap up benefits meal at the tax payers expence …that kind of nasty snydeness …what people have to starve…..I hate to say it but it seems peoplewould like to see thevulnerable starve …….what happened to this country we seem to be in an age filled with hate …..god help us

  22. I had to go see Ingeus a couple of years ago, the chap there who was going to “help” me, told me that he had had agoraphobia too, and he thought that everyone on the bus was talking about him! I told him that was paranoia, and, that if he was going to feign empathy, the very least he could do was to match the symptoms to the disease! I then stood up and walked out! If he had accused me of being passive aggresive, I would have told him that, on that matter, I agreed with him! For some reason I have not had to see anyone for two years, and, yes, I am still in the work related activity group, not the support group. If you are able to stand up to them, and you are in the right, they eventually back down, as long as you don’t swear or threaten them. I am one of the lucky ones, I am capable of stating my case, and will not take their lies and bullying tactics, my heart goes out to those who find it difficult to argue their corner. The very fact that they have left me alone for so long proves they are bullies; I growled and stood my ground, gaining my strength from the fact that they were in the wrong, they saw that and backed down – bullies!

    • Very sound advice – keep the swearing until out of earshot! I too have found that if you know your stuff and are assertive, without being rude, abusive or threatening they will basically leave you alone.

      • Thanks sibrydionmawr, it is a real struggle to “keep a lid on” my anger and exasperation sometimes, and I’m afraid my tongue gets the better of me & dishes out a liberal dose of sarcasm – wrong, I know, but it feels sooooo good!

  23. Department for deceit and sanctions . have had me working in B&M stores for my giro , lets just say on Friday i was oh so clumsy with big lcd tv’s turned up today to be told i have been replaced lol

  24. is the email address used to create a universal job match account seen by potential employers when applying for sex worker jobs on the site ? anyone

    • Jamdog,

      No only the one in your cv or what you make publicy available.

      If you created a account sprcifically for UJM, and it has been used by someone to spam you – oh dear that is “data breach”, and of a GOV worksite. Report it as suc h and send off to Information Commissinar expressing your horror at your and no doubt other peoples treatment. You wouldn’t be alone.

      Any data, not made public is just that, not made public. It is supposed to be secure like other GOV websites

  25. Robin The Boy Wonder

    I can sun up Britain today… Victorian values with mobile phones and Twitter. That’s all it is. That’s what it has become….

  26. Whilst I agree, there are people out of work who would jump at the chance of a job, however the article lacks factual knowledge.

    As a person working in benefits, I speak to people everyday, who have chosen benefits as a way of life. The percentage is high. I’d I had a penny for every time someone came to me and said, ‘I’ve been offered a job, I want you to calculate how much housing benefit I would get if I start working, I want to know if I will be better off.’. And normally, after the meeting they would say, ‘so of I go to work thirty hours a week, all I will have left in my pocket is £100, where as if I don’t work I get £72, there’s no point in working.

    And don’t get me started on families who have child after child despite being in benefits. They take up about 25% of all benefit claims. Raising families at the tax payers expense.

    • overburdenddonkey

      roz
      i don’t see any facts in your post can you please provide some…

    • Sorry Roz,

      This is weak – “Whilst I agree…”, then in the next sentance go in the opposite direction supporting the ConCons and the rest of the trash.

      As requested, as it is such a Huge Huge problem, there must be lots and lots of evidence to back that up – thousands put in prison for fraud?

    • Sorry roz, i cannot take you seriously, If you did speak to many people (depends where you are, the work situation the travel situation) and it is part of the dwp’s own calculation about how to be better off.. If you are not better off.. (in addition the to extra travel costs the clothing costs and cleaning costs…can eat £100) not to mention anything going wrong with the benefits adn you could lose your home.. I think you are just using hearsay.. so they are supposed to work 30 hours a week for £28.. thats not even 1 pound an hour..

    • Roz, the job centre staff used to offer that service all the time. ‘Lets see if you are better of in work rather than signing on’ blah, blah, blah!!!.

  27. The 23rd of March 2015 Mark’s The 240th Anniversary of Patrick Henry Deliveringhis Speech ” Give me Liberty or Give me Death ” at Saint John’s Episcopal Church in Richmond Virginia 1775 .

    Even Better is Give me Liberty and Give me Life to Live.

    Down with Tyranny Slavery and Oppression

  28. It is my Conclusion that the Sheople Majority are quite Happy to be Thick and Ignorant and to be Literally in Cuckooland

    Look at the Diabolically High Cost of Existing the Mammoth Gulf between Rich and Poor and the Threat of More Nutcase Budgets if the Nutcase Tories get back into Office

    I am Angry and Incensed with the Spinelessness and Tiny Worldism of Millions of Sheople Scum out There who have Acted the Ostrich whilst the Tories have Wrecked Public Services with Liberal Democrat Support

    Shame on Anyone Thick Enough to Vote ” Conservative “

  29. With regards to devil dodgers working at food banks. Why on earth do you people creep out of the woodwork spouting your fairy stories at people who only want some food. They don’t want to listen to your sad belief system about angels in clouds and white men walking on water in a country where no white men lived. There is a time for fairy tales. When someone is vulnerable and hungry the last thing they want to listen to is devil dodging fools trying to brainwash them into their pack.
    I don’t mind devil dodgers as a rule, however when they start to prey on the weak they really get up my nose.
    BEHAVE.

    • tommcfar – It is beneath me to reply to you other than to say that it is beneath me to reply to you.

      • Of coursr it is beneath you. Like others of your ilk who require the crutch of religeon you have to believe your above us mere mortals.
        While my views may offend your belief system, in my eyes you are to be pitied, except when your kind interfere in the lives of proper thinking people.

        • tommcfar – ditto my previous reply/non-reply, and to any future comments you make

          • overburdenddonkey

            fellow
            a leading quaker i know doesn’t advocate god/scriptures/bible et al, @ all in healing, as you so often do, he and his wife never mention god @ all in fact….they do advocate the expression of trapped anger and rage to rid one of childhood frozen terrors….
            http://www.truthtrustconsent.com/public_html/quakerism

            • There are branches of Quakerism who do not think twice about welcoming atheists into their midst.

              It’s a shame other religions don’t take a leaf out of Quakerism and refrain from forcing their religion onto others. But hey, most “religious” people seem to worship creed (or Wikipedia in Fellow’s case) but not the “words” of their idols.

              Badly amiss, all of it.

              • overburdenddonkey

                lucy
                thanks, i wish you would post more often you’re missed…
                atheists no such thing unless one is abled to stop the toxic doctrine seeping in…it’s just another swear word, to scold/scapegoat those who refuse to swear alliance to the holy roman way…

                • I wouldn’t mind an atheist hat.

                  Religious hats… And trousers that’s a reason to join.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  chewie
                  it’s suits satans claws….aka santa…uniform, unified…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  this is a pretty good a/c of quakerism it is nothing like MS christianity…
                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/quakers_1.shtml for example ‘No liturgy. Quaker worship is very different to the worship of most Christian churches in that it doesn’t follow a set liturgy or code of rules – a service has no structure, and no one leads it. Quakers do without a liturgy because they believe that worship happens when two or three people come together to worship – nothing more is needed. This belief comes from Jesus’ statement that “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20).’

                • Hey up obd! It’s nice to be missed🙂 I think of the word “atheism” as a suit of armour, to keep out that toxic doctrine. I suppose it can be used in a derogatory way, but I don’t think of it in those terms. When I say “I’m atheist” it saves me explaining humanism to the creed blinded, because despite yours and Shirley Nott’s excellent & determined attempts to reason with Fellow JCP Customer, I’ve learned the hard way, that to attempt debate with fanatical and evangelical religious folks is like teaching pigs to sing – it wastes one’s time and annoys the pig.

                  This business of digging at the vulnerable to nose into their beliefs at food banks is morally inexcusable, and I believe that most religions tend to insist that the self is truly abandoned in favour of the creed.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  lucy
                  yes, DUALITY, but this is a large and inclusive doorstep….fellow wouldn’t be given a second, if fellow fellon my door step….

              • There’s hope for me yet then …

            • obd – you have now relegated yourself to the level of tommcfar, and I shall not be replying to any of your baiting either (except perhaps to dismiss it, if I can be bothered) – I consider my time to be precious.

                • That’s it Fellow, you stamp those little feet, throw those toys on the floor. Show your self up good and proper to your “god”

                • Doesn’t your religion teach humility then Fellow? Doesn’t look like it from your replies.

                  Yes, obd is promoting the words of Dr Bob Johnson, someone who has spent their life trying to heal the harms caused by the orthodox brutality of modern psychiatry, and you think this is appropriate to mock? How many have you healed with your burning fires of hell?

                  I think you mock, because you are terrified. Stuck with rigors of terror on the realisation that, despite all of your bullying and infantile words to the hungry and vulnerable, there is no god in the sky, there is only that, that lives on earth.

                • lucy – ignoriing someone is not the same as stamping feet or having a childish tantrum – it’s to do with not wasting my precious time replying to you, obd, and the other one whose name I can’t be bothered to copy and paste – although I concede I have replied to you this once, just to clarify my attitude to you.;

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  the utter self importance self centered arrogance you display is astonishing as if, only your time is precious and of importance…all to avoid answering a question and as if your words/views hold some kind of authority over the words and views of others…don’t post if you can’t deal with a challenge, this is a forum, not a one way street…man cannot live by bread alone, the best car in the world is a pile of junk without energy….
                  ‘fellow
                  i note you’re still replying…in the next reply you might explain to me why you think it’s ok to counsel people who are in need for blatantly obvious reasons…before they get what they need to end their vulnerability, in every case reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life…’

                • obd – and this hopefully is my last reply/non-reply to any “points” you raise, which, like lucy’s I have simply skimmed through in order to save some of my precious time. Christian-baiting is very old sport in a general sense, and also in the specific sense of the life of those who have been converted to Christianity for any length of time. Yet those who engage in that sport, including you, lucy and the other one always seem to think that they are saying something new, and that the Christian is duty bound to reply to it. This is a blog (I don’t know/care whether that is the same as a forum), and some people wish to reply to everyone who disagrees with them about anything or everything and some people such as myself only wish to reply to those who do not level constant insults about Christianity and challenge-laden comments about what they as non-Christians believe Christianity entails, as well as personal insults. Shirley was more or less, in my argument with her at least, in the former category, and you, lucy and the other one are definitely in the latter. If you want to, maybe you could think of my refusal to reply to you as having “silenced me” on the matter, and could thus claim an illusory victory.
                  “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” Matthew 5:11, and “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” John 15:18-19

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  that’s a projection…a scientologist’s trick….
                  you’re not the victim of baiting, we are!! we’re not trying to silence you….
                  but asking for an explanation….and you’re claiming to be thrown to the lions….WOW!!

              • overburdenddonkey

                fellow
                you’re the master baiter not me…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  do you seriously advocate trussel trust et al counselling food bank users, before they have eaten, and/or warmed themselves in the safety and security of their own homes?

                • obd – obviously I do, otherwise I wouldn’t have argued at length with Shirley about it – and I can more or less predict your reply to this – go ahead – this is definitely my last reply to you on this or any other matter

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  and that makes you no if’s no but’s a neoliberal….

                • obd – zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  oh, i see must need words of ‘god’, before food and shelter…a good move would be to discover why this unified god was concocted…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  i note you’re still replying…in the next reply you might explain to me why you think it’s ok to counsel people who are in need for blatantly obvious reasons…before they get what they need to end their vulnerability, in every case reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life…

                • obd -ioejflkm,,mnlkjnekl4w54e67t7898

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  now you’re in infant mode, imo, it is an opportunity not to be missed to find out why….

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  i note you’re still replying…in the next reply you might explain to me why you think it’s ok to counsel people who are in need for blatantly obvious reasons…before they get what they need to end their vulnerability, in every case reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life…why don’t you answer my question 1st?

                • “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” Matthew 4:4

                • the quote from matthew was not a reply to obd, to whom I have ceased to reply – just a part of scripture which, being a Christian, I tend to quote.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  just so as you feel @ ease it is written…’WORDS. At the age of 10, I came across Isaac Pennington, an Early Quaker who wrote that over time “words would of themselves, ‘open’ unto me” – which I took to mean that meanings vary. The same word could mean different things to the same individual at different times. Since I saw this happening to me, personally, such a depth of wisdom enormously impressed me, and still does. Words such as pain, fear and intent have maximum meaning, but zero definition.’
                  http://www.truthtrustconsent.com/public_html/quakerism
                  christ knows where we’d be in 1m years of human evolution without books, if a few thousand yrs of the written word can bring so much havoc to human development…

                • “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” Mark 13:32

                • Not sure where this reply will come up, but it’s aimed at FellowJCP person and his/her constant barrage of toxic, hate based evangelism that promotes interrogating and menacing vulnerable people at food banks about deeply personal matters, before they get some basic food.

                  Yep, basic, minimal, energy giving, food. You can’t live without it JCPSufferer. No food = no life. This is what you are ultimately promoting sweetie, that unless a vulnerable individual, already on their uppers, at the end of their bit of string, living in fear, living in hunger – that person should endure your deranged and fictional religious rantings BEFORE they are allowed that which would keep them alive – food?

                  You should cross the sea and join ISIS, because you are no better than those who push the “believe the same as me or I will kill you” rhetoric. You are one and the same. How does your benevolent superhero god of love come to be the cheap excuse people like you use to castigate others to further shitty life experiences?

                  So still no reply to my questions? Is this because you are enraged that mere others could question you and your malignant sanctimony? Or is it because you have allowed the hollow, cacophonous reward of retribution on the vulnerable to blind you to anything but creed.

                  Your fake outrage is quite amusing, but it’s even funnier watching you be so morally reprehensible and wrong.

                • obd/lucy/whoever – and this hopefully is my last reply/non-reply to any “points” you raise, which I have simply skimmed through in order to save some of my precious time. Christian-baiting is very old sport in a general sense, and also in the specific sense of the life of those who have been converted to Christianity for any length of time. Yet those who engage in that sport, including you, lucy and the other one always seem to think that they are saying something new, and that the Christian is duty bound to reply to it. This is a blog (I don’t know/care whether that is the same as a forum), and some people wish to reply to everyone who disagrees with them about anything or everything and some people such as myself only wish to reply to those who do not level constant insults about Christianity and challenge-laden comments about what they as non-Christians believe Christianity entails, as well as personal insults. Shirley was more or less, in my argument with her at least, in the former category, and you, lucy and the other one are definitely in the latter. If you want to, maybe you could think of my refusal to reply to you as having “silenced me” on the matter, and could thus claim an illusory victory.
                  “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” Matthew 5:11, and “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” John 15:18-19

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  i note you’re still replying…in your next reply you might explain to me why you think it’s ok to counsel people who are in need for blatantly obvious reasons…before they get what they need to end their vulnerability, in every case reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life…why don’t you answer my question 1st? duty bound to defend but too cowardly to answer this question….? imo all human beings are duty/intrinsically bound to be in truth and seek truth, this is our nature, no matter where it takes them even if this truth takes them away from their beliefs in the sky god/heavenly omnipotent force and/or being, and finds them seeing the truth as being, nature is/as god….jesus is/can be the focal point of this study…trying to write a catch all statement (as the one above) as a rock solid defence is pathetic, as what is contained within it has to be true, and in your case it is plainly not….you were defending TT, and you were trying to use quakerism to do this…i and others were taking you to task on this/for doing this, with reasoned arguments which you now claim as an act of abuse(s) towards yourself, and for justifying pre-feed/vitals of life counselling…which is exactly what the dwp do…if anyone chooses to read the opening posts from you to s n they will discover the truth for themselves about who said what in the 1st instance! http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/quakers_1.shtml
                  ‘Holy Books; Quakers do not regard any book as being the actual ‘word of God’. Most Quakers regard the Bible as a very great inspirational book but they don’t see it as the only one, and so they read other books that can guide their lives.’ like i say a quote from the beano is just as valid…seeking the truth is finding the nature of god within self, and my conclusion is nature is god….quakers don’t call that view blasphemy, but legitimate….it is you who are quick to judge others, and call them names, based on your frozen views of what christianity is…that leads me to conclude that you’re hiding behind christanity/religion, and not living it, mantras, chanting, scripture quoting, so that one day it will sink in and become a reality, it does not work like that….inner feeling/wisdom make word…see the works of…..gandhi, percy and mary shelly, dr bob johnson, dr dorathy rowe, plato, pythagoras, dr joanne moncrieff, robert whitaker and dr alice miller.. real!
                  ‘Are Quakers Christian?
                  Although outsiders usually regard the movement as a Christian denomination, not all Quakers see themselves as Christians; some regard themselves as members of a universal religion that (for historical reasons) has many Christian elements. Tolerance is part of the Quaker approach to life, so Quakers are willing to learn from all other faiths and churches.’

  30. Reblogged this on Blinded by the Darkness and commented:
    He has a point … not for profit is not always what it seems …

  31. Pingback: Behind The Benefit Bashing Headlines Lies A Nas...

  32. The 25th of March Mark’s The Anniversary of The Abolition of The Slave Trade in The British Empire in 1807 AD.

    This was via the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act 1807 AD and the Senior Service The Royal Navy Created the West Africa Squadron
    to Patrol the Coast of West Africa Seizing between 1808 AD and 1860 AD over 1,500 Slave Ships and Freeing around 150,000 Africans
    on Board.

    Slavery must be Opposed Now as Well

  33. Pingback: Behind The Benefit Bashing Headlines Lies A Nasty Ideology That Is Not Confined To The Daily Mail | BlogNameUnavailable

  34. I’ve just read a response to “overburdeneddonkey” it would appear that you have relegated yourself to my level.
    Congratulations don’t let the devil dodgers grind you down. Forgive them for they know not what they say.

    • What’s a devil dodger? Is it like a jammy dodger?

    • overburdenddonkey

      tomm c far
      @ least it’s warm were we are…

      • *throws hefty tomes of religious creed on the fire*

        oooh! that’s better, nice and cosy
        crackle crackle

        • overburdenddonkey

          lucy
          i’m in hotel california…’you can check out any time, but you can never leave’….

          • obd, The Overlook Hotel is where it’s at (for all eternity)😉

            • overburdenddonkey

              lucy
              http://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/8 the holy experiment in pennsylvanian…

              • Thanks obd, funnily enough I was reading about the State Penitentiary in Pennsylvania last week and how it sent thousands insane from solitary confinement. Misinterpretation must cause this kind of horror in so many places in the world. A simple message is often the most at risk message, because people cannot accept simplicity. That rigidity leads to the lack of compassion and intelligence as seen in our government and the current state of our prisons here.

                Did you see last week that the MoJ have banned the Howard League from going into 2 prisons in Birmingham because Chris Grayling doesn’t like it that The League have highlighted the daily brutalities? Both prisons run by G4S, G4S invited The Howard League in to see improvements, but Grayling decided to get territorial, his attitude being that only those who praise (parrot his words) are allowed to visit. No one must criticise the system. Now those prisoners have no one.

                You’d think that humaneness was a crime, wouldn’t you?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  lucy
                  some went mad, many recovered…a work in progress solution now found…see this powerful raw vid presented by prof joe sim, the solutions section by dr bob johnson of his successful work in parkhurst prison also the work of the quaker retreat in york…. vid punishment; a failed social experiment you tube hr + long… (copy and select search field…)

                • obd, the regime at The State Penitentiary of Pennsylvania was very different to anything promoted by Bob Johnson or modern Quakerism. Chalk and cheese doesn’t come near describing the difference in approach.

                  Most of the inmates did go insane whilst enduring endless solitary confinement at The State Pen’. The regime was barbaric. Shutting people in boxes for years is not humane. Although the initial purpose was to promote reflection as a means of rehabilitation, the purpose was soon lost and thousands suffered.

                  Rose tinted histories usually result in repeated mistakes.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  lucy
                  yeah you’re right the idea did come from wanting to make a difference…
                  rose tinted specs make the difference between survival in a harsh world and not….
                  which is why psychotherapy/guidance with free/encouraged rage/emotional expression is vital to recovery….and of course expressing rage @ the primary abusers abuse, and not seeing the secondary abusers abuse, as if, they are the prime abusers….
                  it means that one cannot recover if the affects of the primary abusers abuse(s) remains unvented/unbottled, and one will remain frozen, emotional injuries intact…cut the root…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  ps for @ read, of the…

            • lucy – not replying to any of your “points”, in fact haven’t really read them, skimmed over them rather than through them, not “outraged” as you seem to think, quite happy and serene until I noticed you called me “sweetie” at one point, which gave me a good laugh if nothing else.

  35. Pingback: They Are Coming For Our Pensions … And This Is How It Begins | the void

  36. The Imposition of Council Tax upon the Poor from the 1st of April 2013 AD is an Example of what Misery the Tories have Inflicted ( Cut in Funding from National Government to Local Government ) and Why People should Vote in the General Election to Get the Tories Out of Office and the Liberal Democrats as Well

    Tax the Rich and Hands Off the Poor

  37. I have today had my esa stopped and no longer get any support from the jobcentre, on going there I am told that as in there opinion I am fit for work even though I am riddled with arthritis, have diabeties, and asthma, and black out when having asthma attacks,and also suffer from sleep apnea I can claim jobseelers allowance, now because of all my illnesses and despite having a 13 week sick note from someone who knows what they are talking about plus a specialists opinion they say that by signing onto jobseekers I have to commit fraud by saying that I am fit for work, it looks like I am going to have to grass myself up for commiting benefit fraud, how the fuck can they get away with this.
    On the t.v and in the press they are telling people to grass on a neighbour then when I go to the jobcentre they are encouringing me to commit benefit fraud, there is obviously something seriously wrong with the system.
    They also said that if I apply for JSA, they would put me up for a security licence, well that’s great if I was 25 and in good health but I’m fucking 60 and running around like a 25 year old NOT.
    In all of this despite all of my health problems I got zero points out of 15 possible points not bad considering I cant kneel, bend, lift anything, turn my head and am in agony 24/7 I asked if I had to be dead to get 15 points but got no answer.

  38. What’s up, just wanted to say, I liked this article. It was inspiring. Keep on posting!

  39. Pingback: Behind The Benefit Bashing Headlines Lies A Nasty Ideology That Is Not Confined To The Daily Mail | the void | Warcraft, Books & Fibromyalgia…

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