It’s Time To Learn From History, Direct Action and Disobedience Is What Brings Governments Down

matadoscloak

In February 2003 over one million people marched in opposition to the invasion of Iraq.  The mass protest, one of the largest in the UK’s history, was peaceful but determined and organised in full co-operation with the authorities.  An army of stewards prevented sit down protests on the march and ensured that the huge crowd was ushered, efficiently and without incident, into a pre-arranged rally in Hyde Park.   Here trade union bureacrats, Labour MPs and z-list celebrity left-wingers made fiery speeches promising this was just the beginning of a militant peace movement that would stop the war.

A month later US and UK forces began a series of devastating air strikes on Iraq.  The war had begun, and it would kill hundreds of thousands of people.

Marches against the Iraq war continued, organised by the Stop the War Coalition (StWC), which was now little more than a front for the Socialist Worker’s Party.  The protests became smaller and smaller as the war continued.  At one point, troubled by ever declining numbers, the Stop the War Coalition promised direct action – finally it seemed an acknowledgement that it would take more than marching to end the war.  With a renewed enthusiasm they built a statue in Trafalgar Square of American president George Bush.  Then they knocked it down.  The war raged for another half decade.

Astonishingly those behind the Stop the War Coalition are now trying to re-write history and claim that the anti-war movement which emerged in 2003 was a huge success.  Try telling that to someone who lives in Baghdad.  The reality is that a lack of imagination, a dogged opposition to any form of real civil disobedience or illegal activity, and a ruthless top down leadership turned a movement a million strong into a handful of stragglers.

So far resistance to Tory austerity has not followed the same disastrous path.  The student movement became an inspiration across the world when the Tory Headquarters at Millbank was stormed in 2010.  The ferocious protests which followed may not have stopped student fees, but they won concessions and are one of the reasons for the downfall of the Liberal Democrat Party – once the third largest force in UK politics.  The students are as strong as ever, several universities have recently gone into occupation whilst some students at UCL are currently on rent strike.

UK Uncut, whose occupation of Fortnum & Mason’s in 2011 resulted in mass arrests, managed to force all political parties to at least pretend to take tax-dodging by the rich seriously.  The Occupy protests shone a spotlight on the financial alchemy and greed that dominates the City of London in a way not seen before.  London’s growing housing crisis has caused a wave of occuptions, squatting and direct action which has halted evictions and even forced greedy property developers to sell their investments in the case of the Poor Doors protests and the New Era Estate.

Resistance to Iain Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms has thrown his policies into disarray.  Mass workfare has been halted by repeated pickets and boycotts of businesses and charities who use forced unpaid workers.  The vile welfare-to-work sector, the companies paid to run workfare schemes, has been repeatedly under attack leading to their spokeperson eventually conceding that the current benefit sanctioning policies are ‘bonkers’.  There are now less people on workfare schemes than there were at the end of the last Labour Government.

Disabled People Against Cuts, and other disabled people’s groups, have changed the conversation abut benefits and disability in the UK.  The disabled people’s movement is now a potent political force, repeatedly coming back time after time, blocking roads, causing disruption and even occupying the DWP.  Claimants and disabled people have recognised that a government that privatises everything creates weak spots.  The militant campaign against Atos, who carried out the despised assessments for out of work sickness and disability benefits, forced the company to eventually withdraw from the scheme.  In May 2010 60% of people who went through these tests were found ‘fit for work’.  By June 2014 that had dropped to 21%.

We know what works.  Direct action, civil disobedience, disruption and defiance. That does not mean that marches are always a waste of time, but if the last five years tells us anything it is that a diversity of struggle is required – including online action which has proved powerfully effective against workfare.  New times and new technologies need ever evolving tactics.  Tactics which cost them money and frighten them.  Not the same old stale methods of the past from a redundant left.

The People’s Assembly demonstration called for June 20th originally seemed to be on the right track.  The venue, outside the Bank of England, is the kind of precision targeting that is required.  It provides space for other groups to use other ways to resist in the heart of global capital, the City of London.  Unfortunately it now seems the People’s Assembly want us to march away from the bank, to an as yet unspecified rally.  This mirrors the doomed approach of the Stop the War Coalition who in 2003 marched away from Parliament, to gather safely tucked away in Hyde Park.

This is not the only similarity to the failed anti-war movement.  Throughout the fight to end the Iraq war, those not aligned to the StWC were repeatedly frustrated by attempts by the Socialist Worker’s Party to dominate any resistance to the invasion.  When anyone attempted to hold a protest or meeting without StWC approval, they would try and organise a bigger one, on the same day, with Tariq Ali, or George Galloway, or some other boring hasbeen they hoped would draw a crowd.

Almost immediately after the election both Class War and the student group National Coalition Against Fees and Cuts (NCAFC), announced protests on the day of the state opening of parliament – although there is some confusion about when these should begin (with the smart money being on 11am when the actual opening of parliament is taking place).  Shortly afterwards the People’s Assembly also announced a march, leaving at the same time, and from the same place, that the students had planned to meet.  Except that their event isn’t really a march at all, it’s a short walk down Whitehall to an indoor rally.  This could be coincidence, it could just be carelessness.  But it will come as no suprise that some of the individuals behind the Stop the War Coalition have now assumed roles as unoffical leaders of the People’s Assembly.

There is some fantastic work being done by campaigners involved in the People’s Assembly around the UK, and the spate of protests in towns and cities hastily organised after the election is a more than  encouraging sign.  But we do not need leaders, we need a fucking mob.  What takes place over the next five years cannot be a repeat of failures from the past.  The People’s Assembly must resist the temptation to use their muscle – in the form of links with the Labour Party and main trade unions – to monopolise resistance to both Tory rule and the neo-liberal cuthroat capitalist agenda that all of the main political parties support.  And we must not let them because that means certain defeat.  That doesn’t mean we have to have a big row.  It just means people organising themselves, to do what they want, without interference from those who say they are on our side.

Join me on facebook or follow me on twitter @johnnyvoid

288 responses to “It’s Time To Learn From History, Direct Action and Disobedience Is What Brings Governments Down

  1. I’ve said for a while that though I feel that protest can work, the methods of protest need to change. Methods such as demos have been around for decades and as such, it can be argued, people have become desensitise to them. This desensitisation had been increased by the plethora of demos there have been over the last five years.

    New methods of protest are in my view, required for it to become effective.

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  3. overburdenddonkey

    we have to dump the wings, they’re crushing us….!

  4. Lots of Tories are going to be moaning & complaining non stop in a few months. Inflation at a minus with the help of lower travel fares & food prices. Travel fares have gone up & food prices have gone up. They are basing it on wage rises. Wage rises have not risen only for the select few has it risen. Blatant lies which are seen as ripping people off & insulting their intelligence but more blatant than the Tory Election pledge.

  5. The Peoples Assembly? More of the same old fuckers up to their usual tricks (and clearly out to hijack the opening of parliament demo. It’s no coincidence). Pulling in a load of people who really want to get things done and leding them up every dead end going until their disillusioned and don’t ever want to get involved in anything ever again. We’ve seen it over and over and over and over………It’s intentional. Don’t get fooled again.

  6. History may not always be accurate but…It is Time for a Re-Write #FIGHTFORLIFE IS NEEDED NOW

  7. Yes as Madison wrote “all government rests on opinion” and the Tories will keep hammering the people until there is a social explosion. Thatcher was a liar, for her there is such a thing as society, the rich society. Can hear Cameron now condemning the people he detests when they have had enough. Would like to see what the Tories would do in the poor’s shoes.

  8. UN gives strongest clue yet that UK is facing inquiry over ‘violation’ of convention

    DNS – 15th May 2015

    The United Nations has given its firmest indication yet that it is carrying out a secret, high-level inquiry into serious breaches of its disability convention by the UK government.

    Read More:
    http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/un-gives-strongest-clue-yet-that-uk-is-facing-inquiry-over-violation-of-convention/

    • GEOFF REYNOLDS

      ……………..I am nearly finished typing up an 80 page complaint to the UN, each and every time i have raised Equality, Human Rights or Disability Discrimination issues to the courts or tribunals, a judge has dismissed my applications.

      They cherry pick what issues you raise and try to knock your case back.

      The whole fucking judiciary is corrupt from top to bottom, always has been. always will be………………….

      “PARASITES THAT THRIVE ON THE MISERY THEY DISH OUT”

  9. StWC, SWP, have always tried to control, it’s in their nature and their politics.

    We wouldn’t have a society which allows the SWP to exist, or had the post-war consensus to be dismantled by the Tories if it had been down to groups who use control freakery in the last 150 years. Things like the Jarrow march, and the miners strike(s) were fuelled by the desparation of those in the line of fire, not by “organisers”. Occupy and other groups are far more agile and this needs to be the new tactics – agility and disruption.

  10. Thank you Mr. Void! You nalied it again🙂 A-B marches followed by a speech we’ve heard a thousand times before are not going to get us there – drawing a penis next to a candidates name gets him the vote – we have to get into their faces, and into their heads and hearts – DWP staff face a slashing/cops face a slashing/forces face a slashing – there is a lot to unite behind – but we keep struggling to find the cracks ………. why is that?

    • Failing to find the cracks? The problem is that the cracks are so big that people just don’t actually believe that a good shove would big the whole edifice crashing down!🙂

  11. @Johnny Void re the UK uncut protest at Fortnums on the day of this protest which took part at same time as London protests where members of black bloc were smashing windows The BBC were reporting on uk uncut protest and were trying to depict the UK uncut protest as violent and that they were inside the building smashing up the place
    This was not the case in fact photos taken at the time showed then sitting on floor not bothering anyone
    At some point they decided to leave and were prevented by police until they were told they could leave by side entrance they did so and all were arrested and taken to police station and held and had their phones taken from them
    When it came to trial all Bar one were freed

    The hapless daily mail which had the photo of them seated in its text described the protesters as threatening staff and customers and smashing up the place

    What concessions from Fortnums did uk uncut win?

  12. Hooray!! At last some action against these slugs..

    • Whilst there are people chanting ” come on lads let’s get stuck in and give them hell ” they would be the ones disappearing out the back door leaving the poor grunts to get on with it.

  13. Reblogged this on discordion {Artist Ian Pritchard} and commented:
    Non-Violent peaceful demonstration has it’s place, but Governments only bend to Direct Action.

  14. The days of limp fluffy protests are over they are riddiculed ,and ignored we need direct action,maybe hanging some Tories lol

  15. GEOFF REYNOLDS

    You don’t have to ask me what my plan B would be………….

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  17. JV exposes the love and flowers globalisation grandstanding of the Noble Left.

  18. You guessed it

    If you want to protest, take your money such as it is out of the banks and use your pc to watch t.v. and screw the licence. Nobody gave a fuck at the election and sitting on the floor of a posh store is not going to change that one jot.

  19. You guessed it

    Dont use debit cards, use cash. Do nothing that gains banks a useage fee, Bollocks to it,cash all the way..

    • And people will then place that cash in the bank because they have bank accounts

      • You guessed it

        What; the people who take all their meagre savings out of the bank to deny banks consolidated credit on it will have nowhere to put it?
        Yes , of course. Your right. I shall go and sit on the floor of a posh department store instead..
        That will really fuck up the Establishment..

        • What you missed was that the establishment tried to depict those floor sitters as violent thugs

          Why would that be unless it bothered them because it did not fit the protesters are left wing violent trouble makers narrative

  20. Another Fine Mess

    Staffline + A$e = Maxumus Parasiticus

    Back to work boss expects backlash from welfare cuts
    Chief executive of Staffline said he expects a backlash from welfare groups as he tries to find jobs for those claiming incapacity benefits

    Andy Hogarth, chief executive of blue-collar recruitment specialist Staffline, said that after a successful programme has reduced the long term unemployment numbers from 2.5m two years ago to 1.84m today,

    What the hell are “long term” unemployment numbers?

    Canadian group Maximus has since taken over the work assessments and Mr Hogarth expects this to lead to a surge in ££££. He expects to get some 2.5m people over the coming years referred to his company.

    “For a government looking to save £12bn from welfare one of the things they have to do is get the people who are technically unfit to work, back to work, which sounds a bit brutal on the face of it, and that is exactly what a lot of welfare groups are saying, but in reality they can work.

    “Technically” we’ll have a 98% failure rate, but we’ll still make £££££.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/supportservices/11610547/Back-to-work-boss-expects-backlash-from-welfare-cuts.html

  21. Reblogged this on Bristol Anarchist Federation and commented:
    If we want to fight the Tories, we must be ungovernable.
    We must *not* be united into one organisation.
    We must be many organisations, everywhere, speaking and acting in solidarity with each other, trying different strategies, sharing ideas, and not condemning each others diversity of tactics.

    • Misanthropic Resistance, so let’s not talk of the love and flowers collectives.

      • overburdenddonkey

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26142245 the epiphany…
        Tristram Hunt defends crossing picket line for socialism lecture….

        • Tristram Hunt probably better in his role as a nutty professor than a lefty politician, Why Marx Scabbed would be an interesting read from Tristram.

          “After God finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab … When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out. No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.” – Jack London.

    • Socialist Workers Party (SWP)

      And we can supply the stewards with orange armbands🙂

  22. This is a way to start a new, unique party, The Swans.
    http://alwyasnew.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/reblogged-from-paul-bernals-blog-left.html

    If such as UNITE trade union, that wants to break its links with failed Labour party, would get behind The Swans new party, then the hunger for something new would be fed.

    FEED ALL. HOUSE ALL.
    CHANGE EVERYTHING.

    http://www.theswansnewparty.org.uk

    Protest, march, do online protests. Again and again.

    Meanwhile, adults and kids and even babes in wombs starve.

    The starving cannot wait.

  23. If I shared my thoughts on this matter I’d be in danger of being arrested. All I’ll say is, if anyone wants inspiration look to the past (but reinvent for the now), read stuff like Nelson Mandela’s Long Walk to Freedom and so forth.

    I never understood the expectation that protesting was suppose to be like a polite orderly queue.

  24. overburdenddonkey

    what we have/own our labour is cheap, we only have our labour to sell….
    what they have/own is dear….ie land to build houses on is dear, labour to build houses is cheap…housing is expensive it need not be….they control supplies, therefore costs of land, raw matreials and labour…the vast majority of people are crammed into 3m of 60m acres of the uk… http://tlio.org.uk/ we need millions of new homes now…human beings are not stupid but emotionally disenfranchised…the core is vitality giving vitals of life for all….we all thrive if we work for each other and together to get all of our needs met…we all need a place of rest, work, and play….

    • overburdenddonkey

      p s the EARNING of right of life and therefore vitals of life, is an invention of religious dogma, it’s rason d’etre….the sole purpose for it’s existence, is to ensure the whatever dogma is fed and is driven by greed…

  25. No Johnny, direct action and disobedience doesn’t work either, as evidenced by the UK miners’ actions in 1984-85. In fact one can argue that it did far more harm than good, because its failure led directly to the crippling of the unions. It is also clear that mass protests DO work if they are evidence of substantial public opinion, because this country will find it impossible to get public support to attack another country for the next few generations.

    If you want to know what does work and results in political and social sanity, look to Scotland right now……

    • Scotland is in the process of ridding itself of the old order, should it succeed in that endeavour only then will the political persuasion of the new order come to the fore.

      You can suppress a mob but you can’t keep a good man down – Misanthropic Resistance.

      • overburdenddonkey

        exactly…the act of hearing us was facilitated….not so by WM….

        • overburdenddonkey

          ps the miners were starved out, starvation is the tried and tested tactic of the establishment to get what they want…we aren’t called the precarious classes for nothing….

          • No OBD, fundamentally the miners’ strike failed because in England it did not have a democratic mandate. Whereas in Scotland it did.

            …and no, starvation is not a tried and tested tactic of the UK establishment. I bet you can’t think of an example in the last century.

            • overburdenddonkey

              ..SANCTIONS…the WCA…benefit cap…the 30’s ie the great depression…the cause of the glasgow rent strikes…stripping £2bn+ per yr from scottish welfare budget…the massive rise in food banks…the crushing of india, and the subsequent rise of gandhi….the basic terrors used are of isolation (disunity) and starvation…many global famines, wars lead to starvation, starvation causes wars and/or the threat of it…the threat/cut off of life support, crushed the miners…the miners strike succeeded in scotland 1st i’ve heard of it…

              • Late Victorian Holocausts by Mike Davies is a good summary of the British Empire exploiting famine and drought for political ends: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/jan/20/historybooks.famine

                • pat testing

                  …which is precisely why I said “in the last century”.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  oh the last 15yrs…sanctions, wca, the benefit cap, paying rent or heat or eat, malnutrition is rife poor diet very bad for long term health…all done to trigger terrors of starvation, upset people into doing as they’re told…ie cut one off without means….anyway you keep changing your names after being banned from websites, does you no credit and makes you dishonest, from the outset…
                  i said the establishment…not uk establishment…you’re a concern troll….

                • overburdenddonkey

                  j v
                  yep, we’re exploited in exactly the same substitute fields for supermarket buying power ‘food violence’, is the chief weapon of imperialism….hitler used it extensively…

              • I said that Scotland had a democratic mandate, not that the strike succeeded! Can’t you read English?

                I can only recall one (possibly dubious) case of a person starving to death because of sanctions or WCA, so if starvation is an establishment tactic then it’s not a very effective one! The last few governments HAVE used some nasty tactics, but starvation isn’t one of them.

                Only an idiot would think that the great depression of the 1930s was a UK establishment tactic, and the rest of your ‘examples’ were also not in the UK.

              • OBD – “i said the establishment…not uk establishment…”

                If you’re not talking about the UK, then which fucking country ARE you talking about???

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  since when has the establishment been a fucking country….?

                • pat testing

                  You said “establishment…not uk establishment” so either you’re talking about the UK establishment or you’re talking about the establishment in some other country. Which is it? Or are you a complete nutter who thinks that the establishments in the UK, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, Sweden and Zimbabwe are all the same?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  for you to imply a comparison, name another nutter who thinks that…..

                • pat testing

                  Somebody suffering from paranoid delusions. Let’s call him “Ass” for argument’s sake……

                  I was talking about the UK establishment, so which one are YOU talking about?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the establishment that we have direct contact with of course….ie as part of our western imperialist dogmatic, culture…

                • pat testing

                  Ah! So you think the establishment in all Western countries is the same. Where does your Western ‘establishment’ end? Russia? Turkey? How about the southern hemisphere? You wouldn’t want people to think that you’re insular and bigoted, would you?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  who said anything about starvation as being to the death…not heard of the term….suffering from starvation…meaning as the person is suffering they’re not yet dead…! malnutrition is rife in the uk and globally…starved means; short of, or kept short of….sanctions keep people short of vitality giving vitals of life, ie low on energy, that is starvation, that’s the idea of sanctions to punish..starve…make people suffer shortage, to force people into trying to obey the systems demands…that’s the action/mechanism of punishment….this causes terrors for ALL human beings that rely on external energy inputs to keep our systems functioning healthily and normally, when those energy sources are kept in short supply….
                  no machine on the planet can run @ peak efficiency without it’s full requirement for fuel being met and/or with mechanical defects, expecting a human being to do likewise, under the duress of being starved of energy, is plain cruelty….only a smug, full of a sense of entitlement, insular bigot, would think/expect otherwise….

                • overburdenddonkey

                  bob
                  please state your case and i will help in anyway i can…

      • Mr Reckless – True, only time will tell if Scotland will succeed in creating a better society and politics, but I think so far it’s going better than in England…… Wouldn’t you agree?

    • Poll Tax.

      The UK attacked Libya in 2011 by the way.

      • …which is precisely why I said “…public support to attack…”.

        …and the Poll Tax was only repealed because the Tories would have lost the next election if they had not done so. Therefore is was democracy ‘wot done it’.

    • what in scotland?

  26. A-Brightfuture

    The only time protests work, and government is forced to change direction is when “the whole” country is pi$$ed off.

    eg. the Poll Tax.
    A million here, and a million there, is now small fry for government.

  27. Well done to everyone who attends a protest demonstration. Thanks to Mr Void for bringing all of these actions to light. st on it’s way.

  28. It’s all a bit déja vu, right enough.

  29. If you are a JSA Claimant not on Supervised Jobsearch Pilot or Universal Credit and you have been told to do 35 hours weekly jobsearch then please complain to the Jobcenter Manager and to your MP, as there is no legal obligation for you to do 35 hours on normal JSA, it is illegal for them to impose it on you.

  30. Johnny – To go back to your original assertion “Direct Action and Disobedience Is What Brings Governments Down”…… Let’s assume we’re talking about democratic governments, because revolution against a non-democratic government is of course completely irrelevant to the UK.

    Can you think of an example anywhere in the world to support your assertion?

    • Democracy is a sham

    • overburdenddonkey

      pat
      the reason scotland rose up was because our voices were not heard as no democracy does exist, and we were GIVEN an opp to speak out which we did and as a result a totally different picture emerge of the difference between what we were told we wanted and actually what we do want, this HAS BEEN ALREADY COVERED BY J V, in previous blog posts if you care to look, but that IS your way to try to refresh the debate, as if, it has not already been said, WE HAVE ALREADY DEBATED THAT AND MOVED ON FFS KEEP UP WILL YOU, but i’ll add….persuading downtroden peoples that we can have change via our voices being heard is extremely difficult, a fact which you’re actually admitting and denying @ the same time…imv the establishment are children and should be treated as such…the miners were starved out…the terror of lack of vitals, is their emotional weapon…the crushing of the unions was inevitable, what ever happened.. ‘the cheviot, the stag, and the black, black oil….’ this is an example of the establishment @ work, ffs!
      yes people will be inspired by our indyscot movement, the goal of reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life for all, has not yet been achieved..the push for change must be made both politically and socially….the indy movement rose in a very short period from 35%, to @ the time of this poll, to over 60% wanting indy in the next 5yrs, 80% in the next 10…and i suspect those wanting indy sooner has risen still further, after the snp rout of labour…
      as j v rightly states there are many ways of achieving our goals, and we should be very flexible in using this rare opportunity, and there are many protests planned, love the organizers or not…we were allowed to campaign for indyscot and organize, what happens when they try to stop us from gathering in earshot of holyrood, as has happened to WM, when our voices are no longer approved of, coz the political class have gotten what they want and now desire a quiet lavish lifestyle…? this may or may not happen in scotland, but it is a possibility, that will be ignored @ our peril…but we have to give some time to the process, as well….your sole aim is to destroy the credibility of blogs and posters…not to educate others but to eradicate them…in terms of population 20% voted tory to protect their vested interests, that in reality simply cannot be in all of our interests as if we’re all millionaires it defeats the object of their inflation busting, though vastly increasing of equity values……we don’t have a level democratic playing field….picking and choosing facts to suit your arguments is, to use your word, idiotic…unless you’re supporting this system to protect the value of your investments, which i suspect you are…

      • Crap! Scotland could have returned a majority of SNP MPs at any time since 1934. We were not “GIVEN an opp to speak out”, we’ve had it for generations. It’s exactly the democracy which you say doesn’t exist.

        I voted SNP before the independence referendum. I didn’t need it to give ME a voice.

        • overburdenddonkey

          pat
          wow! it’s obvious that your obfuscations are @ a far higher level than i 1st thought, could luck with your lonely isolated rantings….
          if you’re going to try to communicate with others in a meaningful way, i suggest, that you air your views in a far more educational manner, so that the posters actually have an opportunity learn from your pov…and it’s not thrown @ them in your usual dictatorial tendency…

          • You think my opinions are lonely isolated rantings? If so, I suggest you move to England!

            • overburdenddonkey

              pat
              i’ve never heard anyone in the yes movement express your pov, and certainly never to myself…

              • Errrr… what??? You’ve never heard anybody “in the yes movement” say that democracy is a good thing??? You’ve been talking to the wrong people!

      • A benevolent oppressor is still an oppressor, Scotland has a strong bureaucratic and professional class that is not going to surrender its sense of entitlement and privilege easily.

        My lot in Scotland is no more or less precarious than that of an Englishman of the working class.

        • overburdenddonkey

          yep, it’s not done and dusted by any means…

        • “My lot in Scotland is no more or less precarious than that of an Englishman of the working class.”
          I disagree. We already have a better NHS, better education, better welfare, more forward-thinking energy policies, etc.

          “Scotland has a strong bureaucratic and professional class that is not going to surrender its sense of entitlement and privilege easily.”
          That’s true, but it’s already happening., viz. Scottish land reform.

          • overburdenddonkey

            pat
            i am a keen advocate of land reform and have been for the last 20 yrs and have posted on it many many times here….orgs like; reforesting scotland, scottish woodland trust, and various groups, hutting, the land is ours, diggers and dreamers, crofting perma-culture, self build eco homes/villages, cranogs, food coops, food growing coops allofusfirst.org etc….welfare system is not devolved, as yet…certainly we have good community…. i really don’t want to be part of yours though i must say….being blamed for the pain we suffer by the likes of you, no fucking way….i’ve never come across anyone as hostile as you, to another’s pov i’m glad to say…
            http://www.thousandhuts.org/?page_id=2 we need 200000+ new homes now in scotland…
            nothing has happened as yet…the land use planning system has to be changed….

            • …and yet you deny the democracy which is now delivering what you want. FUCKING GROW UP!

            • overburdenddonkey

              it has delivered nothing, and when it does i will appraise it then….

              • “it has delivered nothing”
                Surely you’re kidding??? You would rather live in England would you? There are none so blind as those who will not see……. OR A FOOLISH MISERABLE GIT LIKE YOU!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  name one project delivered by land reform legislation in scotland….?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  ps why england that according to you is rather a bigoted and insular pov…why leave all the other countries of the world out…? therefore you do believe that england is undemocratic, a while ago you were saying it wasn’t….

                • pat testing

                  The Land Reform bill hasn’t been passed yet! Anyway, I’m talking about far more than that, as I said, NHS, education, etc. You think democracy has delivered nothing for Scotland, and I find that rather sad.

                • pat testing

                  You missed the point. I didn’t say that England is bigoted and insular, or that it’s undemocratic. I was referring to you!

                • pat testing

                  …and to correct your appalling lack of knowledge about welfare in Scotland – try Googling Scottish Welfare Fund and Welfare Funds (Scotland) Act 2015

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  you’re showing gross ignorance of devolved welfare power administered by the dwp @ present…..what you refer to is the social fund, now called the welfare fund that is an existing scottish power…. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-no-more-devolution-powers-to-scotland-after-todays-settlement-9995837.html which includes limited devolution of welfare powers under the smith commission recs which as you obviously are unaware have’t passed into law and still the subject of much debate…

                • pat testing

                  If you think the Scottish Welfare Fund (SWF) and the Welfare Funds (Scotland) Act 2015 aren’t about welfare in Scotland then you have a slight comprehension problem!

          • Getting dizzy watching you soar, here on the ground living on hardship payments and threats of eviction.

        • P.S. …and in England under this Tory government things are going to get worse for working class people… MUCH worse.

          • Should the Scottish Government continue to devolve welfare to local councils and the Third Sector then big society “localism” will be realised in Scotland before England.

            • That’s probably going to change when (if?) the Smith Commission recommendations become law, so we’ll have to wait and see. However, I know for certain that I wouldn’t want to be poor or in bad health in England in the next 5 years or more!

              • overburdenddonkey

                most i know condemn smith as delivering nothing…it is not empowered to deliver anything by cause of clause, that you ought to be aware of if you’re an advocate for indyscot that you claim to be…and even if the clause wasn’t there it doesn’t in it’s present state give powers to halt sanctions and much much more that is required by the scottish govt and it’s people to be a satisfaction to keir hardies vision of home rule…ie what the vow was supposed to deliver…

                • pat testing

                  Then most people you know are fools. The Smith recommendations would certainly deliver more than nothing.

                  The ‘vow’ just before the referendum said absolutely nothing about Keir Hardie or home rule. Where did you get that idea from? Either you’re an idiot or you have a very bad memory.

                  When did I claim to be an advocate for ‘indyscot’? You should learn to read what people actually say, and not jump to false conclusions.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the vow remains an orphan…but nevertheless gb and ad both claimed as nr to home rule as possible as part of the vow, prior to 19th, smith delivers nothing and cannot…ok so you’re not an advocate of indyscot, my mistake, so that means that you want to remain part of the WM union…but scotland will have no, can have no, benefits from smith… http://wingsoverscotland.com/lord-smith-and-the-seven-magic-beans/ there’s plenty more on wings that relates the vow and also to home rule prior to the 19th sept….. ‘In other words, the only way to ensure that none of the UK’s constituent parts gain or lose financially is to change nothing. The minute you make Scotland raise some or all of its own income tax, say, you massively alter the financial balance (because of the differential levels of spending in different parts of the UK, because – for example – Scotland’s landscape and more widely spread population make it more expensive to provide public services).’…..the whole idea of voting snp was to hold the feet of WM to the fire….and ensure more is delivered to scotland than smith offers…and from there if no satisfaction delivered indyscot…

                • pat testing

                  Wow, your memory IS bad! The ‘vow’ was made by Cameron, Clegg and Miliband. Nobody else.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  no it wasn’t, no one has admitted authoring it…
                  http://wingsoverscotland.com/winning-ticket-remains-unclaimed/
                  ‘We remain puzzled that nobody in the Union camp wants credit for saving it. The front cover won awards, yet has no author. We must presume that the saviours of the UK sought that goal and are proud of it, yet nobody wants to be identified as the creator of the celebrated proclamation at the heart of it.’

                • pat testing

                  First you say the Brown and Darling made this vow, and now you say that nobody did! Make up your fucking mind!

                  The fact is that the signatures of Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were clearly shown on the vow. Or are you claiming that they knew their signatures had been forged, but they didn’t think it was worth mentioning to anybody?

                  YOU ARE A COMPLETE FUCKING IDIOT!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  that’s it, your nastiness and rudeness knows no bounds..i’ll not post to you again…go on do your normal goads running away from the argument etc i’ve heard it all from you before…no1 i made the mistake of thinking i could get through i was wrong, posting to you is futile, now fuck off….

                • pat testing

                  It’s not posting to me that’s futile, it’s posting things which even a 5 year old can see are wrong to anybody that’s futile! Did you even read the ‘vow’ on the front page of the Daily Record?

    • Johnny – As you can’t think of an example to support your assertion, you must therefore admit that your assertion is wrong.

      • pat testing. an assertion does not have to be supported by an example, there is nothing to prove. As a positive statement, an assertion has no basis in facts and therefore, there are no wrong or right answers.

        • Bernadette – An assertion is a statement of fact or belief, so you’re right that the assertion itself has no intrinsic quality or value. So if I say the basis of the assertion is wrong, would that be OK?

          Have you read any Robert Pirsig?

          • P.T In all probability, the basis of the argument/discussion is correct. That the premise upon which it stands has no basis in fact or assumption is also correct. On the other hand, just because no one has ever seen a Black Swan does not mean it does not exist. We will have to conclude, that, the premise on which we both agree, has no rational.

            • Bernadette – I’m puzzled… you say that the basis of the argument is probably correct, but that the premise has no basis in fact. Do you know of any democratic government which has been brought down by direct action or disobedience?

              P.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan !

              • Pat T, No I do know of any democratic movement which has been bought down by direct action or disobedience. That is not my aim here. You suggested that because JV had no evidence to support his assertion that he was wrong. I was simply stating my thoughts on the meanings of assertion.

              • pat, ‘Black Swan Theory’, a metaphor

                • pat testing

                  Bernadette – Yes I know, but the metaphor has been meaningless for centuries, and more recently comes only from a pretentious dickhead who only himself and other pretentious dickheads could possibly regards as a philosopher.

                  Of course people can make assertions which have no basis, but they’re dickheads too!

                • pat testing

                  P.S. Pirsig apparently knows a dickhead when he sees one too. It’s all about the nature of quality, which Taleb wouldn’t see even if it was tattooed on his eyeballs.

          • P. T, Robert Pirsig, ‘a man outside of his time’ Interesting.

  31. Ooh fuck of pat tesical ….do everyone a favor ..go a fucking kill yourself ..cunt

  32. Another Fine Mess

    The Job Centre Channel 4 10pm tonight.

    Observational documentary series following exuberant Jane Vincent, who owns a lively Bradford recruitment agency, and her straight-talking team, as they seek out jobs for their extraordinary customers
    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-job-centre/episode-guide

    • Please Dog, make it stop…

      • overburdenddonkey

        s n
        if you’ve seen the ‘book thief’, you’ll know there is no dog just some wanker’s who thinks they are…

        • obd – well, you’re the one who said previously you think that you are a god…

          • overburdenddonkey

            bollocks, i said we’re ALL gods….most don’t know it and believe pie in the sky…

            • You described your post perfectly in the first word!

              • overburdenddonkey

                says you who believes the vow to be a real document signed by clegg cameron and miliband and has the power to change scotland for the greater good via smith which scotland by voting snp has rejected….the vow falsehood of which was a major factor in woken up people by cause of the amazing indyref campaign, voting snp in their droves….and ultimately for indy very soon…if it had been a real document it would have possibly broken purdah, to deny signing it @ the time would have implied that it’s contents which did reflect what each had separately said were not meant…the DR played a blinder but have lost the battle in sales…. btw when i said ‘ the vow remains an orphan…but nevertheless gb and ad….’
                means the vow has no author but even so gb and ad acted as if it was real and was authored by clegg et al…i never said any different, and democracy is not just voting, which is just one component part of the democratic system….you’re the only person i know, that believes in the vow, as being in anyway useful to scotland and it’s people…apart from a red/blue tory that is…!
                http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-unwanted-vow/
                ‘Now, there are all sorts of possible ways to spin those findings, many of which somewhat contradict each other. But two things do seem to be clear. One is that nobody’s going to be putting up any statues to the Smith Commission any time soon. And second is that when the time comes to negotiate the new devolution settlement, the people of Scotland don’t much fancy what they’ve been offered in the name of The Vow so far, and they want a large block of MPs at Westminster who they definitely trust to put Scotland’s interests first….’

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  so you admit that you’ve lost the vow argument then….! and now you want another one about who is god….you’re certainly attributing massive status to who you believe who/what god is by the tone of your post….
                  certainly of no surprise to me given your readiness to spray undermining/insulting comments @ other posters……

                • pat testing

                  You didn’t make any rational argument about the vow, so there’s nothing to respond to. Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are all clearly on video, audio and written record as saying that they DID make that vow. Are you saying that all the records are fake?

                  You can claim that the Smith Commission recommendations will never be delivered if you like, but that hasn’t happened yet, so it’s just more of your irrational drivel…… or can you see into the future because you’re a god?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  if they are on record post links would be the cooperative thing to do…and by your reasoning many scots who voted snp because of the vow falsehood are also clearly gods able to see into the future..or is that just a prediction based (deconstructed data) on what scots voters already know about you red/blue tories types…

                • pat testing

                  You refuse to believe something which almost everybody in the UK saw for themselves? You’re a sad little loser.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  well it shouldn’t be hard to post the links saying that they DID make the vow then will it…..? as i have clearly stated some did referred to the vow prior to the 19th and as wings clearly states there is no author nor do the people of scotland believe the vow or any other promises made by your lot, which was a major reason that people like you won’t accept the red tories defeat as being your/there own/doing by repeatedly misleading scots voters…thorough analysis of the vow/smith et al has taken place prior to may 7, and has proved very negative to red/blue tories, which is one of the reasons why they were routed from scotland….
                  ‘the vow remains an orphan…but nevertheless gb and ad both claimed as nr to home rule as possible as part of the vow, prior to 19th, smith delivers nothing and cannot….’

                • pat testing

                  If you believe it was faked when they said it on broadcast TV at the time, then nothing I can post now can change your bizarre delusions.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  irrelevant…i’ve clearly asked you to post links..vis your claims that they DID admit to making the vow…the fact that you refuse too/cannot speaks volumes of the validity of your claims….’Cameron, Clegg and Miliband are all clearly on video, audio and written record as saying that they DID make that vow. Are you saying that all the records are fake?’ where are these records you speak of…..? referring to it, is not the same as admitting authorship of it….

                • pat testing

                  “referring to it, is not the same as admitting authorship of it….”
                  How can they have referred to something which doesn’t exist? Make up your fucking mind you deluded fucking moron!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  just post the links…and stop procrastinating….and stop calling me names that will not change me….but as you know it will irritate me, which of course is why you do it….which hardly facilitates winning an argument, and shows you up for what you are a bully….we all know that a front page piece in the DR presented ‘the vow’ for public consumption….

                • pat testing

                  Of course! Cameron referred to a vow which he never actually made, and nobody except you noticed. Aren’t you clever!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  actually many noticed…that the referred to vow has no acknowledge author you claimed that it has, and i’ve asked you to post links to verify that claim, as no one else has been able to discover that info and wings have posted extensively on the subject of not being able to find an author and/or anyone admitting that it was their work…no one…!
                  please post the links that you claim proves authorship of the vow….

                • pat testing

                  Nobody except YOU mentioned authorship, you deluded twat!

                  So Donkey-Shit-For-Brains… do you think people can’t make a vow which they didn’t write themselves?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  http://wingsoverscotland.com/victorys-missing-fathers/
                  ‘We still don’t know who actually wrote “The Vow”, nor under whose authority it was sent to the Daily Record. One would imagine that such a “truly historic” document – a binding guarantee that the newspaper clearly regarded as sufficient clarification of the precise nature of what Scots were voting No for, and as “one of the key reasons” that the Smith Commission is sitting at all – would have people clamouring for the credit. After all, the No camp won the referendum, didn’t it….’ post your links, stating who did author the vow….

                • pat testing

                  You seem to have forgotten that previously you thought they never made the vow at all… OOOOPS!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the vow as was described for all to see on the front page of the DR…as well you know, now post your links….

                • pat testing

                  PT – “Wow, your memory IS bad! The ‘vow’ was made by Cameron, Clegg and Miliband. Nobody else.”
                  OBD – “no it wasn’t”

                  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  no it wasn’t, no one has admitted authoring it…
                  http://wingsoverscotland.com/winning-ticket-remains-unclaimed/
                  ‘We remain puzzled that nobody in the Union camp wants credit for saving it. The front cover won awards, yet has no author. We must presume that the saviours of the UK sought that goal and are proud of it, yet nobody wants to be identified as the creator of the celebrated proclamation at the heart of it.’ now post your links…

                • pat testing

                  You now admit that Cameron, Clegg and Miliband did make that vow, but you still demand links to it? What the fuck for? You’re seriously off your rocker!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the question is who sent ‘the vow’ to the DR, and who was the authority behind it…answer appears to be is no one, and is not yet discovered despite the best efforts of some..they may well have accepted it once it was published to reject it would have muddied the waters, to say the least and possibly broken purdah or @ least open to challenge…the vow was worded very ambiguously so offered in effect nothing…in line with that offer of nothing, is smith and as i have stated is a major reason scots rejected labour and vote snp in their droves….as no one has accepted authoring the vow they who you claimed to have made the vow have effectively rejected it’s authenticity…even though it’s ‘authenticity’ is branded in the minds of some…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  ps typo; to accept it as coming from them would have possibly broken purdah…

                • pat testing

                  So Donkey-Shit-For-Brains, you obviously think people can only ever make a vow which they wrote themselves ……ever heard of marriage?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  who authored the marriage vow…are you now claiming that the DR, and/or cameron, clegg, miliband, did….? or perhaps god himself, but like all christian rights they started in paganism handfasting…so that vow has a very long history and wasn’t designed to bring in votes….or perhaps it was you might be onto something there after all….bums on seats obedient to a unified higher author-ity….nah on the whole we’re better off without vows so TeDiouS are they, very draining to be chained to another by a higher authority….

                • pat testing

                  Whoooosh!!! The concept obviously went straight over your thick head! I’ll try again…… The sincerity of a vow (or lack of it) depends upon the person making it, not the person who wrote it. Got it yet?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  i’m actually sick of you’re insults now..but who made the DR vow….

                • pat testing

                  Wow!!! I knew you were thick, but not THAT thick! You apparently can’t understand the simplest of concepts. Here’s one last try……

                  IT DOESN’T FUCKING MATTER WHO WROTE IT, IT’S WHO SAID IT THAT MATTERS, AND THAT WAS CAMERON, CLEGG AND MILIBAND

                • Thread Squatting that’s this

                • overburdenddonkey

                  so post me links of them saying the vow from the DR word for word then….

                • overburdenddonkey

                  bob
                  you tried to butt in but can’t get a word in edgeways, right….?

                • I’m not playing your games

                • pat testing

                  Perhaps you should tell your wife that you’re not really married, because she didn’t write the vow herself!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the perception was that clegg, cameron, miliband, wrote the DR vow and signed it as their work as a pledge, but no one as yet has owned up to authoring it, that’s partly the issue here….not who referred to it….as i have already stated ad and gb have referred to the DR vow…like i have already stated the vow nor smith offers anything in any case, which is plain to see once the text is examined….the original point was your reference to smith to mr r…i said smith offered nothing and was a major factor in the snp landslide as was the text of the vow itself…that no one had the courage to own up to writing the vow did not bode well for labour nor the DR either, people felt conned….the implicit claim was that the 3 had penned and signed the DR vow, and therefore sent the vow to the DR…

                • Tedious slanging match these blogs have turned into

                • pat testing

                  “the perception was that clegg, cameron, miliband, wrote the DR vow”
                  Only to idiots like you!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  why all the personal insults i am only giving my view on what has happened, explaining how i see what has happened…sounds to me like you’d rather it hadn’t happened and are looking for someone to take it out on ie me…. i know you red/blue tories find loss of power difficult to deal with, but you’ll get over it in time…

                • pat testing

                  I say Shit-For-Brains because that’s exactly what you’re proving over and over again. Do you think Prime Ministers and party leaders write their own speeches too?

                  “red/blue tories”? Your memory is REALLY bad. I already told you I voted SNP.

                • you wind your neck in right fucking now or thats the last comment you post on this blog.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  so your idea of intelligence and boosting the intelligence of others is calling them names and shit for brains…not very clever @ all…yes you told me that you voted snp ages ago, and also told me that i had not right to vote snp coz of my attitude, and that i should move to england…i also mistook you as an advocate for indy, because you had voted snp or told me you had…

                • pat testing

                  Johnny – As you replied to OBD, it looks like your warning is to him. If it’s to me, then what’s your objection? My use of “shit” and “fuck”?

            • obd – most of us, including atheists, deists and agnostics, know NONE of we humans are gods – you do not know this – it is you who believe pie in the sky – or to be more precise pie on the ground in your case.

              • overburdenddonkey

                best not to believe what one don’t know then….! and only believe what does, ie water quenches thirst…

                • pat testing

                  OBD – Do you think you are one of those few superior people who know you are a god?

                • obd – if you are, as you claim, a god (forget about every other human being for a second), then please advise us all which supernatural qualities you possess which distinguish you from a normal human being who falls ill, grows old and dies?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  please give me an example of supernatural powers and where i can go see them in action…isn’t the human being amazing enough for you…?

                • pat testing

                  The question is – What is the difference between you who believes himself to be a god, and people who are not gods?

                  The only difference I can think of is delusion or mental illness.

                • obd –
                  “please give me an example of supernatural powers and where i can go see them in action…isn’t the human being amazing enough for you…?”
                  human beings are amazing, but that doesnt make them gods – you claim to be a god – I repeat, what is the thing which we should observe about you or which you can point out to us which proves, indicates or suggests that you are a god?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  je suis charlie….ie there is no omnipotent with super natural powers god, why do you keep on claiming that there is…?

              • Fellow JCP; Mormon’s believe the notion that human’s can become God’s, citing that God and Jesus were ‘once human’

                • bernadette – I know mormon’s believe that, but there’s nothing which differentiates mormons from ordinary frail humans, and I very much doubt they would be able to come up with anything, just as obd will fail to come up with anything.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  we’re all god means, we’re all equal why are you denying this….?

                • obd – “we’re all god means, we’re all equal why are you denying this….?”
                  if you mean we’re all equal then why don’t you say we are all equal instead of saying we are all gods??, (which to 99% of those you are addressing means something completely different) If you do not believe there is any omnipotent God with supernatural powers, then why keep bringing the word god (which refers to a supernatural being) into your arguments, and referring to humans as gods? – it makes your arguments nonsensical.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  to get through to the gullible such as you…human frailty as you put it is caused by not acknowledging the limits of our capabilities and begging god to help us overcome the huge burdens dumped on our shoulders by cause of not acknowledging that we are human beings…and that there is no god/prop/crutch to help us and we should say, no! get lost, more often to the unreasonable demands on our time by others …you’re the one that gives/attributes supernatural powers to god not me….

                • overburdenddonkey

                  and it was in those terms that i was addressing your views of quakers….
                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/quakers_1.shtml so don’t try to isolate the subject by using the passage of time, t decay memories..justifying your involvement with the trussel trust and all…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  p s where did i bring god into the argument on this thread…? i did mention dog to s n…

                • pat testing

                  Where you said – “we’re ALL gods….most don’t know it” – you deluded fucking moron!

        • Obd – Used to be agnostic & now I’m not so sure..

          The book thiefs I’ve seen up to now are cabinet ministers voting to diminish library services/prevent books from being in prisons. Fairly sure these days tho that if Dog does (somehow) exist s/he/it is a pretty hands-off, create the universe and then sit back and watch Omnimpotent bean. (that, or a neo-liberal affluent, tory-leaning, partisan Dog). S/he just invented the lottery and then went off to do some celestial gardening or some such impo(t)ant actings. Reserving the option to convert/repent all on my deathbed, saying that..

          • overburdenddonkey

            s n
            yeah, you’re right don’t bother…sounds like you’ll enjoy the film… cue vera..

  33. You give me lots to think about Johnny Void. I think we need to hit our oppressors right in their wallets. How do we do that?

    • obd – your second last post is beyond incomprehensible, and total manure. You also told shirley (not just me) that we are all gods in a previous post. Is that because you see her as gullible too? – no of course not, because she is willing to give your beliefs some credence.
      Re your last post – I’m not going to follow your link about quakerism, any more than I followed it the last time. I am not “involved” with the Trussell Trust in any way, but I will defend to the last their aims of both helping those in need (as commanded by Christ) and spreading the Gospel (as also commanded by Christ). It is what is demanded of followers of Christ by their leader, who is Christ.

      • overburdenddonkey

        no! you’re the one responding to me over that and still are…i mentioned dog and you lept on it to have another go @ me, you mentioned god 1st so therefore i never brought god into any argument as you claim i did….
        and you do think that your irrational beliefs make you a superior being and grace before food parcel, is pure mean bollocks and contravenes any notion of equality…
        you defended their aims by bringing quakerism into things, and misrepresenting them, as soon as you did that you involved me…

        • “shirleynott | May 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm | Reply

          Please Dog, make it stop…

          overburdenddonkey | May 20, 2015 at 6:43 pm | Reply

          s n
          if you’ve seen the ‘book thief’, you’ll know there is no dog just some wanker’s who thinks they are…”

          I was five when I first realised that the words god and dog are the same letters spelt backwards. Shirley often says Please Dog as a way of mocking those who pray to God and also God himself. I rise above such mockery. Your reply says “there is no dog just some wanker’s who thinks they are…” Am I to believe that YOU believe that there is no dog anywhere, not even a stray mongrel roaming around the loch near where you live? And that those who see dogs all around them in daily life, from rottweillers to pekinese, are hallucinating? And as p t said, you DID mention gods.

          • PS At no point did I claim to be a superior human being – I am blessed by and have a personal relationship with the Supreme Being, and that is good enough for me – any further mockery of my beliefs will be ignored by me.

            • Fellow – It’s very refreshing to find a theist who thinks it’s no better to believe in a god than to be an atheist. That’s very unusual, and in direct contrast with what’s said in the Christian bible. Well done!

              • p t – when did I say that I think it’s no better to believe in a god than to be an atheist?

                • pat testing

                  You said you don’t *claim* to be superior, so I assumed you don’t think it either. Maybe I was wrong. So to be clear – Do you think it’s better to believe in your god than to be an atheist?

                • pt – I neither claim to be a superior being nor think it. I aver that it is better to believe in the Christian God ie the One True God than to be an atheist, an agnostic or to believe in any other “gods”, who are false. It is better ie beneficial but it does not make me an intrinsically superior being to believe in the One True God, as others who are currently of other or no beliefs can become converted to Christianity. The fact that they are not currently or never will be Christians does not make them inferior to me – it means they are not benefiting from the connection to and relationship with God which God wants for them, just as much as he wanted it for me before I was converted to Christianity. Christianity benefits Christians both in life and after death. You have obviously, intentionally or not, misread my comment.

                • pat testing

                  “I aver that it is better to believe in the Christian God ie the One True God than to be an atheist”

                  Then surely by definition of the word “better” you must think that a person who believes in that god is superior to an atheist.

                • p t – ““I aver that it is better to believe in the Christian God ie the One True God than to be an atheist”

                  Then surely by definition of the word “better” you must think that a person who believes in that god is superior to an atheist.”

                  IT is better does not mean I am better – it means it is better for me ie of benefit to me/a blessing upon me.
                  “It is better to be well-fed than starving” does not mean “I am a better person if I am well-fed than those who are starving”. “It is better to be walking in light than in darkness” does not mean “I am a superior being because I am walking in light while those who walk in darkness are inferior”. “It is better to have a home than be homeless” does not mean “I am a better person than a homeless person because I have a home”.

                • pat testing

                  Fellow – You *chose* to believe in your god and I *chose* to be an atheist. All your silly example are not choices. If you regard your choice to be superior to that made by another person then you clearly do regard yourself to be superior.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  quite right the problem is that of indoctrination….

                • pat testing

                  OBD – Wow! We agree about something!

              • overburdenddonkey

                pat
                not for long i wager..
                yeah but we don’t agree on how to cure it…behaviourism cures nothing…
                got to get to the root causes (the glue that holds indoctrination stuck fast)..
                thence built on, indoctrination sticks, and that is always caused by another’s power to deprive and command one…the resultant terrors of not doing as the others says, of ‘not getting it right’ not understanding the instructions, as they go against nature….the indoctrination is against nature….not doing as instructed by powerful other leads to even greater deprivations on top of the original deprivation(s)..one has got to express the trapped frozen feelings of that abuse, to free one’s mind….see ie pavlov’s dogs, and how they’re trained.. simply commanding others to change, is very godly dyt…? breaking free from indoctrination is extremely difficult….

                • pat testing

                  OBD – We won’t even get as far as disagreeing about that, because your premise that indoctrination is anything like a disease is wrong, so the concept of ‘curing’ it makes no sense.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  not so, but then you always like to argue about coverings rather than content..and you have disagreed about my most recent post…you’ll possibly create as distracting argument about me claiming that, so as to move away from the original….
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease ie a disorder of a structure or function, that affects part or all of an organism. specifically here emotional function/dysfunction, mental function or dysfunction…is close enough for me….indoctrination can be removed…indoctrination does affect the functioning of an organism…ie away from it’s nature…

                • pat testing

                  In spite of reality, you’ve decided that indoctrination is close enough to a disease for you and so can be ‘cured’? You’re obviously wrong yet again – JUST READ A FUCKING DICTIONARY! However, your rationalisation doesn’t surprise me, because it makes it no longer your own choice…… isn’t that handy for you!

                • pat testing

                  OBD – The people of Ireland have just CHOSEN to reject some of their religious indoctrination. They didn’t have to be ‘cured’ of it.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  no! i said the affects of abuse is what keeps indoctrination stuck fast, cure the symptoms of abuse so as the indoctrination is cut and falls harmlessly away…and for some one who is an ungodly atheist you sure have a lot of rules and bark a lot of commands…i wouldn’t want to be your shadow, that’s for sure….yes it’s excellent news that the people of ireland to reject the indoctrination’s of church…..lets us hope it continues to be so….

                • pat testing

                  What the fuck are you going on about? Nobody even mentioned abuse. The subject here is religion.

                • pat testing

                  You seem to be totally obsessed about child abuse and where to find a “cure” for it. It pervades everything you write, whatever the subject is actually about. There’s something very unhealthy going on……

                • pt – I don’t see how making a superior choice makes anyone a superior person – obviously I don’t have the “superior” intellegence which you claim to have. If we change those “silly” examples of me to choices: It is better to choose to do your best to feed yourself by whatever means possible than to choose to starve yourself. It is better to choose to attempt to stay in your home than to make yourself homeless. It is better to choose to walk in light than to walk in darkness. These are inarguably wise choices, but the person who makes a wise choice is not intrinsically superior to another person who makes unwise choices.
                  “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” – Matthew 11:25.
                  and
                  “Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” – 1 Corinthians 1:25

                • pat testing

                  Fellow – Those are survival choices (and very obvious ones!) and so are nothing like comparable to the choice of whether or not to believe in a god. That choice is neither obvious nor a matter of survival. Further, in the case of your Christian god, the choice is a fundamentally moral one, because you are ‘signing up’ to a clear set of moral rules and following written teachings of morality.

                  If making moral choices doesn’t make one person better than another, then nothing does. Or are you arguing that no person is better than any other person? You know that if you argue the latter then you are on VERY shaky ground and Godwin’s Law approaches…!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  you admit the problem is indoctrination…how very convenient for you, that you don’t see indoctrination a abuse though…!
                  if one can overcome indoctrination via freewill choice this means that there is no such thing as indoctrination ie you’re claiming indoctrination is a choice….so hows the indoctrination held in place again…?

                • pat testing

                  OBD – If you think religious indoctrination is the same as child abuse then your sense of proportion is bordering on the insane. Which is worse, being told a few silly stories, or being raped and tortured?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  well @ least you agree that being raped and tortured as a child indoctrinates one…

                • pat testing

                  No I didn’t say that at all! Are you a complete nutter? You just invent what people said when it suits you!

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  so to be clear you’re saying that being raped, tortured and abused as a child doesn’t indoctrinate one…?

                • pat testing

                  We all know that many priests and nuns did both (and some probably still do), but religious indoctrination is completely different and separate from child abuse. I suggest you look up “doctrine” in a dictionary.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  ‘OBD – If you think religious indoctrination is the same as child abuse then your sense of proportion is bordering on the insane. Which is worse, being told a few silly stories, or being raped and tortured?’
                  dawkins thinks that religious indoctrination is child abuse…
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination the subject here is not just religious indoctrination…but indoctrination….it’s a major affect of child abuse…and how indoctrination sticks, until the cure intervenes and frees one of it…and i’ve asked you a perfectly reasonable question, whether or not you agree with me this blog concerns religious indoctrination or indoctrination, the word i brought up, my definitions with it…as a CSA/CA victim myself, now recovered, i know that indoctrination plays a major role in this crime and is abuse…
                  ‘so to be clear you’re saying that being raped, tortured and abused as a child doesn’t indoctrinate one…?’ please answer it….

                • pat testing

                  Dawkins was wrong, and I believe he later retracted/qualified that comparison anyway.

                  It’s perfectly obvious that the subject here IS religious doctrine, so I don’t know why the fuck you think it isn’t (other than your manic obsession about child abuse of course). If you want to give everyone your wisdom about some other non-religious doctrine then feel free, nobody’s stopping you. I might even agree with you, but I doubt it.

                  ‘so to be clear you’re saying that being raped, tortured and abused as a child doesn’t indoctrinate one…?’ please answer it…
                  I already have! But YET again that is NOT what I’m saying. Raping a child has many effects, but it isn’t a doctrine.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the word is indoctrination ie what is inflicted on one by others in a doctrine, what ever that doctrine is…your answer is therefore that victims of CSA/CA are not indoctrination by their abusers…how unreal can you get…
                  the subject here is indoctrination no matter how you try to spin it otherwise…please post the evidence that dawkins has retracted his statement the religious indoctrination is child abuse…healing from child abuse is as much a necessary manic obsession as breathing and eating is, as it has profound affects on one’s life’s chances…healing is not a hobby….

                • pat testing

                  You STILL don’t have a clue what “doctrine” means”.
                  …and fuck off and look up the Dawkins statements yourself you lazy shit.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  pat
                  obvs i do, and i have…and stop your insults….and because of them i will now stop posting to you on this blog post, but rest assured i will post to @ some further point….

                • overburdenddonkey

                  ps i agree with ‘Noam Chomsky remarks, “For those who stubbornly seek freedom around the world, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the propaganda system to which we are subjected and in which all too often we serve as unwilling or unwitting instruments.”

                • pat testing

                  OBD – “i will now stop posting to you on this blog post, but rest assured i will post to @ some further point”
                  Ha ha ha ha! Most 5 year old children are less transparent than you! In that case, why don’t you fuck off and never post again? You’re doing it for your benefit, not anybody else’s.

            • overburdenddonkey

              so you still believe that it’s ok to counsel people in need, prior to their needs being met..i cannot condone any org that does that, and for those reasons i detest any org that is behaviourist @ roots and indeed behaviourism it’s self… i mentioned dog 2nd, but you mentioned god 1st…i will not use the term dog again….
              but why didn’t you have a go @ s n and as i recollect she was the 1st to criticize you over counselling prior to food, when you tried to align your type of christainity with quakerism, i weighed in to correct you, the evidence i presented you freely admit you will not look @, but you did expect me to look @ the evidence that you presented and accept it without question….i never realized that it would cause such a stir and i certainly hadn’t noticed s n’s use of the term dog….it is also unreasonable of you to expect me to have known your 5yr old concerns…which as a 5 yr old child would have been the very least of my concerns as a CSA/CA victim, which i have mentioned here extensively…the shock to me is that you’re unwilling to consider other peoples concerns, yet expect your concerns/needs to be measured as paramount…ie your misrepresentation of quakerism to bolster your argument that the TT, is a benevolent godly org working in the name of jesus….the story of jesus is of great suffering and him rising above his suffering, and as i see it learning to cope with it…..
              quakerism is @ ease considering this possibility, in seeking truth….many quakers don’t even consider themselves christians…so comparisons with TT are bogus/ill-founded, to say the least…by trying to align quakerism with your beliefs, is to mock quakerism…but as you know best this is ok….’this is the way it is, it’s unchangeable, so there, anything else is manure’…no one has a duty to protect your religious views that’s for you to do…
              quakers do not do is to celebrate suffering of any kind and seek to relieve suffering…certain knowledge is unshakable and cannot be used as a defense shield, however i do accept that belief systems can be fragile, requiring the believer to hide behind them, when they feel emotionally threatened/challenged….christanity has a long and bloody history of persecuting others as a means of indoctrination, using fear/terror of loss as a tool of oppression…quakers seek truth…god the creators truth in human being..imv nature…god is nature…when the likes of you call me a blasphemer for saying that, you claim that your views are superior to mine and thus more important….you are not using counter argument but being dismissive of any other view…
              http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/quakers_1.shtml
              ‘Are Quakers Christian? Although outsiders usually regard the movement as a Christian denomination, not all Quakers see themselves as Christians; some regard themselves as members of a universal religion that (for historical reasons) has many Christian elements.’
              ‘Holy Books Quakers do not regard any book as being the actual ‘word of God’. Most Quakers regard the Bible as a very great inspirational book but they don’t see it as the only one, and so they read other books that can guide their lives.’
              my right to reply, remains mine…

              • OBD – Are you a Quaker?

                • overburdenddonkey

                  no…but i obviously have a deep regard and belief in the quaker way of life…

                • overburdenddonkey

                  ps i should add to that re belief should be interpreted as understanding of….

                • pat testing

                  No Donkey-Shit-For-Brains, belief and understanding are NOT the same, and only a moron who can’t even read a dictionary would think so.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  the typo; was interpret…should read, should read understanding…

              • obd – I did not try to align my beliefs with quakerism – I pointed out that many successful businesses were founded by people of Christian faith who tithed ie gave a tenth of their income to their Church, including Rowntree who at the time was a quaker, quakerism also at the time being recognised as an offshoot of Christianity. I did not have a go at shirley because she unlike you was reasonably civil in her argument with me and did not throw insults at me in frustration and anger when she was not getting anywhere in the argument.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  i’ll take a rain check on I did not try to align my beliefs with quakerism…
                  ‘I did not have a go at shirley because she unlike you was reasonably civil in her argument with me and
                  >>>did not throw insults at me in frustration and anger when she was not getting anywhere in the argument.<<< please show me where i did such a thing…..?

                • pt – the choice you are making in choosing whether to believe in the Christian God or not affects where you choose to spend the rest of eternity ie where your immortal soul spends eternity; it is a supernatural “survival” choice. Denying that you have an immortal soul does not excuse you from the consequences of not accepting Christ’s free offer of salvation. If you do not go to heaven after you die, the Bible tells us, you go to the other place. Your soul does survive, but it spends eternity in punishment in the place which was not prepared for humans but was prepared for the evil one and his angels.
                  The moral rules you are signing up to after conversion to Christianity are those outlined in the Christian Bible. It is possible although unlikely that someone could follow the moral rules outlined in the bible as if they were following a moral guidebook, yet not accept that they, however moral and righteous a person they might be, are still a sinner who needs Christs perfection and The Holy Spirit in order to attain perfection, salvation and consequent entry to heaven. It is the person who thinks that leading a good life ie making moral choices and behaving morally is sufficient for salvation who is on shaky ground.
                  Apparently Godwin’s law applies when someone makes comparisons of say a traffic warden to hitler or a nazi – I don’t know what that has to do with anything that I have said.

                • pat testing

                  Fellow – You avoided the question which we’ve been talking about. I’ll try again… Are you arguing that no person is superior or better than any other person?

                  By the way, there’s little point wasting your time explaining to an atheist what happens after death! Let’s concentrate on the life which we both agree actually exists, shall we?

                  We haven’t got to Godwin’s law yet. I’ll let you know when.

              • obd – “so you still believe that it’s ok to counsel people in need, prior to their needs being met..i cannot condone any org that does that”
                FOR FIVE MINUTES, YES! And I don’t care what you condone, I care what God tells me to do, both in His Word and by the power of His Spirit.

                • overburdenddonkey

                  f
                  well it’s obvious that you don’t care what others think…imv you’re sincere, but these pre-feed chats ARE how people get in and take advantage of others when in need, please consider this…

                • pt – I’m arguing that Christians do not believe themselves to be superior to non-Christians – just blessed by God and headed for heaven when/before they die (depending on whether The Rapture) happens before they die or not. I don’t know what you are saying about no one person being superior to another, I’m only saying as part of my argument that Christians do not think themselves superior to non-Christians. If I am richer in wordly wealth than you it does not make me superior to you in any way – it makes me “better off” than you. Similarly if I am blessed with something which you do not have ie God’s Spirit, God-given salvation and knowledge of God’s purpose for me it makes me more fortunate than you but not superior to you. I have been blessed with spiritual discernment.
                  “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” – 1 Corinthians 1:18
                  If I have a great musical genius and you are tone deaf it does not make me superior to you, it just means that I have been blessed with a talent which you have not. All talents are gifts, and to say that someone is superior to someone else because they are blessed with more talents makes no more sense than to say that because someone receives twelve material gifts and someone else receives none the person who receives twelve material gifts is superior to the one who has received none.
                  As for Godwin’s law, well try making a connection to what I have said to it. I will be very surprised if you can.

                • pat testing

                  Fellow – I didn’t know that you could speak for all Christians. This is brilliant! It’s almost like speaking to a god!!! I have LOADS of questions for you, but I’m so busy at the moment and I don’t want to miss this unique opportunity. You’re not going to disappear and not reply any more are you? Please promise that you will check back on this thread and still reply to me over the next couple of days……

            • overburdenddonkey

              ps i also find it odd that you give more prominence to a word as being more harmful than the actual suffering…

              • obd – “>>>did not throw insults at me in frustration and anger when she was not getting anywhere in the argument.<<< please show me where i did such a thing…..?"
                When you said in your one-word reply "IDIOT!"

                • overburdenddonkey

                  fellow
                  so not in the plural then, can you show me the post as i asked you to do…sincere apologies for calling you an idiot, even i get frustrated @ times…a mix of anger, fear, and feeling not heard..

                • obd – You mention my “concerns” as a 5yr old child. I was not “concerned” that the word dog and god use the same letters but spelt backwards – it was just something I noticed a long time ago.

              • pt – I can say that no true Christian believes themselves to be a being who is intrinsically superior to an atheist, as Christ’s teachings do not support such an assertion – salvation is a gift which God offers to you just as much as to me – the only difference is that I acknowledge its existence and its necessity and I have accepted it – but I don’t know what that has to do with speaking for all Christians about everything. I have God in me, but, as I pointed out to obd, having God in me does not make me God or a god. If your questions relate to the teachings of Christ I am happy to reply to you. If, on the other hand, you wish me to speak for all Christians about everything, again, all I can do is point you towards the teachings of Christ, which all true Christians follow.
                By the way, if you start insulting me and swearing at me the way you did obd, any communication will immediately cease.

                • pat testing

                  Do you mean that you don’t have any ideas beyond what’s written in your bible? That’s SO disappointing after what you seemed to claim earlier! I can read your bible any time I want, so that makes your mind (and any discussion with you) completely irrelevant. I always thought free will was important and unique to humans, but it looks like you (and hence also all Christians) exclude yourself from that.

          • overburdenddonkey

            i wish you would/had ignored me, fat chance…..

            • pt – I don’t know why it would seem to you (or to anyone for that matter) that I claimed previously to have a non-scriptural approach to Christianity. If you read through my replies to others on various matters, you will see that I have several ideas outwith Christianity, and many arguments which are unrelated to it, and don’t know why you would think that I would not, but my approach to Christianity itself is unapologetically both Bible-based and Holy Spirit-filled, and I have never to my knowledge implied otherwise. I am glad that you consider my mind (and any discussion with me) completely irrelevant. I can assure you that I find discussions with you both irrelevant and wearisome, and I find your mind as revealed in your comments and discussions on here to be not quite as logical as you presume it to be. I choose freely to follow and obey Christ and to believe His Word, “For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:30. Free will is important – Adam and Eve were free to sin, to disobey God and to disbelieve God, which they did, the consequences of which were that they and all mankind were separated from God. Christ reunites us with God if we freely accept His sacrifice, the perfect redeeming the imperfect and cladding us in His perfection.
              I agree with you that free will is important to humans but I disagree with your nonsensical statement that it is unique to humans – cats for instance have free will – they can choose not to eat the food which you put in front of them if they do not care for it, unless they are starving.
              This is hopefully my last reply to you on this or any other matter.

              • You still haven’t answered the question, and for a clear reason. You think your god will give one person eternal punishment and reward another with eternal paradise, even though YOU say one is no better than the other, either intrinsically or through their life choices. Isn’t that very unfair? But then fairness and compassion isn’t something which emerges from Christian stories of the actions of your god! Maybe you think that’s simply so, but if you think humans were created in the image of your god, then where did human fairness and compassion come from?

                I’ve often asked this question of Christians, but never received an answer. If belief in Christ is a requirement for entry into heaven, is every person who lived before 2000 years ago now suffering eternal torment, even though they had no possible way of avoiding it? And subsequently, how about those who never came into contact with a Christian or a bible?

                By the way – You clearly don’t understand either the concept of free will, or animal behaviour! NO animal can choose to refuse suitable food if it’s starving to death. On the other hand, humans UNIQUELY can make that choice and so die, if they think it serves a purpose beyond themselves.

              • P.S. Obviously I didn’t mean do you have any ideas AT ALL outwith what’s written in your bible, I meant about your religion. It’s pretty obvious that you couldn’t take your ideas about traffic congestion or genetic engineering (for instance) from the bible!

                So do you?

          • It’s the first or possibly 2nd time I’ve used that expression on here but who’s counting (just you, fjcp) and I reserve the right to change any worms 4 comic/sardonic/ironic effect if I think it might make anyone else smile, or even merc – or just to puncture the view were being faced with. Some things are just too ridiculous not to be mocked, and it was originally allegedly)

            • ‘A free country’).

            • Shirley – you have a short memory – I have read your use of it several times – if you look through all Johnnys posts you will be able to check – I do not need to check as I can remember you repeatedly using it. As stated before, I will continue to ignore your mockery of Christianity and Christians. Your use of dog to mean God is irrelevant to me – I brought it up to point out to obd that he had referred to God when stating dog.

              • overburdenddonkey

                f
                for someone who didn’t take that word seriously you certainly have a strange way of showing it….mine was a satirical comment to s n, that you blew out of all proportion in your attempt to rewrite/reignite what had previously been said re TT….it remains my position that pre-feed counselling/grace is totally unacceptable, for hungry people…counselling is for the gut and should be in the form of a plate of hot nutritious food, hungry people MUST be fed on demand, and the historic reasons why they have no income remedied..
                the foundation stone of socialism/social justice is the reliable supplies of vitality giving vitals of life for all….end sanctions and conditionality now, double benefits including pensions now…
                cut and cap rents, not benefits….. a decent basic INCOME for all….
                http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/socialcharter/Conclusions/State/UKXX2_en.pdf article 12 uk benefits manifestly inadequate… or basic citizens income…

              • I know it’s supposed to work like this but I can’t easily respect religions or religious beliefs – however the people who sincerely hold those beliefs I can & often do respect on an individual basis. It’s fine for someone to mock atheists for their lack of any religious beliefs & this shouldn’t be in some way sacrosanct any more than in my view, religious beliefs should be – other than to those who believe in them. So, i don’t believe in the existence of blasphemy.

      • God is in all of us (if you believe that sort of thing. Whatever Obd said in a post about foodbanks was relevant then but this is now (& still religious beliefs not the main issue on here. Whatever happened to Live & Let Live or is it too difficult to allow people to express their views without slating them all the time (as ‘god’!

        • … As ‘God’ said to Moses -in between ordering him to choose between his own much-loved son
          and a ‘benevolent’ fire-starter.

          • overburdenddonkey

            s n
            i’ve just seen the movie….it inspired vowhenge…the stone tablets are awkward to carry about, you’d think human beings would be able to cope now without a set of written instructions….

        • shirley – your most recent reply is meaningless to me. I live and let live, and I don’t know how or why you would claim that I do not.

  34. Fuck off pat festival poncey cunt..ow thum peopleth thwink a discuthwun sthwite ith for discuthwing thwings ……ponce…..

  35. The More Mass Protests against Tory Tyranny the Better

    Down with Austerity

    No to Universal Credit

    Britain stop Standing About like a Nation of Zombies and
    Demand Better than Austerity Slavery

  36. Welfare Legislation Need’s to be There to Help the Poor and
    Vulnerable Not to Oppress the Poor and Vulnerable

    Politician’s Need to be Challenged over Welfare Policy

    We Need a Massive Political Revolution which gives a Real Voice
    to the Poor and Vulnerable that Sweeps Away Slavery and
    Slavery Collaboration

  37. It makes my Blood Boil to see how Arrogant and Out of Touch
    the Chancellor of the Exchequer is

    Responsibility For the Nation’s Finances should Not Rest with an
    Out of Touch Millionaire of an Out of Touch Regime that is
    Essentially a Dictatorship of the Selfish Rich

  38. Good Article by Johnny Void

    There is a Need For Strategy in Campaigning For Social Justice
    and the Defence of Welfare Benefits

  39. Pingback: Ticking Time Bomb | Gabriel Vents

  40. ” This mirrors the doomed approach of the Stop the War Coalition who in 2003 marched away from Parliament” – Funny you mention that and then criticise a march that is ending at Parliament😉

  41. I agree with you. Protests definitely have their place but they are all too easy to ignore (when peaceful) or vilify (when not). For example it wasn’t the protests and riots that brought down the Poll Tax (and Maggie Thatcher) it was the mass non-payment campaign and the successful outreach that made said non-payment campaign so successful.

    We need grassroots anti-austerity groups in every town and village who can get real action going. Be it sleep outs in areas where councils have banned rough sleeping, blocking evictions of those affected by the bedroom tax or benefit cap, ensuring the hungry are fed and similar. But they also need to act on Outreach.

    We need New Media in the rest of the UK to catch up to Scotland. We need anti-austerity art. We have to get the message out beyond our own side because shouting, and even acting, in an echo chamber is no good. (If we act and it turns more people against us we lose).

    But mostly what we need is to re-coalesce our atomized communities. We’ve successfully been separated and isolated from each other even when we work side-by-side. If we can reconnect with each other then we can build a genuinely popular grassroots movement and even if we don’t bring the Government down sooner we can surely bring them down in 2020.

    • overburdenddonkey

      becka
      exactly…re birth of grassroots democratic process is urgently required….’we the people demand change’….a good start imo is to invite speakers involved in social justice movements…be they catalan, scots, russian or from any part of the globe…
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g67NzuiQAwE cat boyd see also her RIC 2014 conference speech….

      • I think we’ve forgotten how.

        Perhaps we also need guides on arranging and publicizing meetings, locating and inviting speakers and similar.

        I feel like I know what to do but I have no idea how to do it. One thing I’d like to do is start a local newsletter to show people the negative effects of Austerity to hopefully combat the poison of the traditional media, but where to start? I’m not a journalist.

        • overburdenddonkey

          becka
          perhaps hire a local hall, offer the speakers expenses, board and food…or be cheeky and ask robin mcalpine for up front funding, then possibly a bucket? sarnies, cake and tea for a fee?…the write a newsletter, up load to youtube etc tweet it get the message out there….set up ‘common space’ cafe or project… https://commonspace.scot/ an affiliate of the common weal and allofusfirst.org

  42. overburdenddonkey

    bob
    you’re welcome to pat testing imo, good luck with your decision…

  43. In 2010 too Many Fiddled About when they should of been Protesting
    For Social Justice and Human Dignity

    It is Essential that across the Country there is Campaigning to
    get some Real Opposition to Damaging Public Spending Cuts
    as opposed to Grumbles and Slavery Loving

  44. The 26th of May Mark’s The Anniversary of The Establishment of The Peloponnesian Senate by Greek Revolutionaries in 1821 AD.

    After the Messianian Senate it was upon the 26th of May that The Peloponnesian Senate was Founded at the Kaltetza Monastery with Bishop Theodoritos of Vresthena as President and Rigeas Palamidis as Secretary. After moving to the Chrysopege Monastery in Stemnitsa and Tripolitsa the Senate was Replaced by The Second National Assembly at Astros in April 1823 AD.

    Jesus Christ Conquers Motto of Seal of The Peloponnesian Senate

    An Hellenic Love For Nation and Liberty compared to Modern British Love
    For Nihilism Totalitarianism Obscene Poverty and Obscene Wealth and Enslavement

    My Blood Boils with Absolute Rage at the Oblivious Attitude of
    Millions out There

    Hope comes from when there is a Reason to Hope that Things
    will Actually get Better

  45. The 27th of May Mark’s the Anniversary of Nazi Thug and Tyrant Reynard Heydrich being Wounded in Prague in 1942 AD.

    This Thug and Tyrant Hitler’s Stooge in Bohemia and Moravia was a Suppressor of the Czechs and a Victimiser of Jews.

    He Departed this World upon the 4th of June 1942 AD.

    One Less Nazi Thug and Tyrant in the World

    The Tyranny of the Nazis should Always be Remembered just
    like the Eugenics and the Euthanasia and the Forced Labour
    Slavery

  46. The 29th of May 2015 AD Mark’s the 225th Anniversary of Rhode Island Ratifying the US Constitution and becoming the 13th State in 1790 AD.

    The Anchor Symbol and Word Hope were very likely Inspired by Hebrews Chapter 6 Verse 18 to 19 of the Holy Bible namely Hope we have as an Anchor of the Soul.

    Hope is Something Britain could do with in Resisting Tory Tyranny

  47. Pingback: read in merry may 2015 | Ba Jin

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