We Are All Benefit Scroungers Daily Telegraph Figures Show

make-rich-payFigures published in today’s Daily Telegraph reveal that the vast majority of UK tax payers are likely to take far more out of the welfare budget than they ever pay in.

The Government are soon to send out statements showing how much tax people pay towards the social security budget, NHS and other government departments annually.  The Telegraph have used these figures to work out how much tax people are likely to pay over a lifetime in what appears to be a crude attempt to use big numbers to undermine support for publicly funded healthcare and the welfare state.

This had led the paper splashing a story across their front pages today  claiming: “A person who earns an average salary of £50,000 over a 43-year career will contribute £219,039 to state welfare and pension spending.”

The next sentence however reveals the truth of the situation: “They would have to receive the state pension for 38 years to become a net beneficiary.”

Now this may be optimistic, but it’s not impossible, meaning even some of the highest earners will get all the tax they spent on social security back in their pension.  The figures are also deliberately misleading.  Few people, even the highest paid, start their career on £50,000 a year, so these earners would have to be on significantly more than that by the time they retire for this to be a career average salary

Far more importantly the figures also show that someone on £25k a year,  just under the average wage of £26,500 (but still far more than many people earn), will pay a total of £80,854.19 towards the social security budget in their lifetime.

Pension Credit, the minimum income guaranteed for single pensioners is £145.40.  This means that an average earner who lives just ten years after retiring receives every penny they’ve paid into the social security system back in pension payments.

And this is assuming they didn’t have children.  A couple of kids means average earners will also receive around £30,000 in Child Benefit.

Whilst everybody’s circumstances are different, so precise calculations are impossible, it is likely that most of those on salaries of up to around £30/35k are a net drain on the social security budget.

And this is before what most people regard as benefits are even taken into account.  Any of these tax payers who have ever needed to claim in-work benefits such as tax or child credits, housing benefit or funding for child care will receive far more over their lifetimes.  On top of this, should they ever become unemployed, unwell or disabled, they will be be eligible for the increasingly scant support of the benefit system.

Whilst benefits are under attack like never before, the value of this level of social protection is still not insignificant.  Even the most basic private income protection insurance, which doesn’t include cover for disability and would only provide a tiny income for a year, is likely to cost around £20,000 over a 43 year career.  Job Seekers Allowance, the benefit for those unemployed, is just over 2% of total welfare sending, costing around £1,600 over the lifetime of the average tax payer.

But after they’ve received their pension and any child benefits, the vast majority of tax payers are actually getting this comprehensive social insurance for free!

The reason for this situation is the huge disparity in wealth in the UK.  Last year the Daily Telegraph ran a piece whinging that the top 1% of earners pay 30% of the tax.  But that’s because they’ve got so much of the money.  As recently pointed out by someone else (but I can’t remember who), if they had all the money, they’d pay all the tax and they’d no doubt still be fucking complaining.  This is despite the fact that almost all government spending is geared towards helping them become as rich as possible whilst remaining safe from the threat of crime or revolution.  The amount they pay in tax is nothing compared to the amount of profit they earn from our work.  That is why the rich keep getting richer and we keep getting poorer.

This chasm between the very rich, and the rest of us, means that most people, whatever they may think, are a drain on government spending.  So the next time you hear someone complaining about how their taxes pay for people on benefits perhaps you could gently remind them that the chances are they don’t pay a penny towards the benefit bill.  In fact it’s quite likely they are one of those benefit scroungers that everyone is always complaining about.

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148 responses to “We Are All Benefit Scroungers Daily Telegraph Figures Show

  1. In any event, the welfare state isn’t designed to be a you-get-out-what-you-pay-in system. It is designed to pay for those in need from taxes generated from those that can afford to pay; essentially, the richest, who make their money from the poorest can contribute the most to ensuring a decent lifestyle and retirement for us all.

    They get less (directly) out of a system that gives us (directly) more and keeps us ticking and generating their profits! Indirectly, we can see by their bank balance who actually gets more from a decent benefits system and welfare state.

    • Well said! The facts are there – the welfare system works! Wealthy people should be made aware that they are much better off by supporting those in need.

      I’m particularly thinking of JSA, one of the most derided benefits; ‘Spongers’, ‘Scroungers’ and ‘Workshy layabouts’ are all phrases bandied about by the ignorant (who are probably getting just as much as a jobseeker in tax credits, often much more). Some believe that those on JSA don’t really want to work, and that may be true of some (very few, I think). But the ‘Cost to Society’ of failing to provide for people, so that they are far more likely to resort to crime as their only option, would be much, much greater than the cost of keeping people’s heads above water.

      I’m personally think a Citizen Payment is the only answer. Everybody gets it and it would be far less expensive to provide. Better still, it would deprive the government of a lot of the power it wields over us! £350 (or even £400) per month per adult citizen is less than half the cost of the current spend, and gives everybody the same safety net. Disability benefits would be an additional claim, and pensioners would be entitled to their contibution based pension as normal (no more pension credit to calculate – that’s what citizen payment ‘s for!). Housing costs would be dealt with, as now, by regional councils on an ‘as needed’ basis.

      The trouble is that left-wingers complain that the wealthy would get it as well. I say, so what? They’re going to be paying top rate tax on it, and it means the poorest get more! Right-wingers complain that people would be ‘getting something for nothing’. Again I say, so what? It’s a cheaper way to give people the money they were going to get anyway and leads to bureaucracy for everyone!

      Didn’t mean to ramble on for so long – sorry!

      Good luck to all!!

      • Yes, i agree.
        The problem with most systems, including the one we have now, is the rich, who keep maybe 30% of every person they employ’s earnings, pay a very small percentage of there wealth in taxes compared to there workers due to tax holes and accountants, while complaining that those on benefits get something for nothing!
        The truth is, wealthy employers have always maligned benefits because the safety net also works for those who are abused by said employers. How many times did you hear the complaint; ‘I just cant get the staff.’ ?
        It translates to ‘Well, actually i have this cement works biz, and I need someone to load lorries all day with 25kg cement bags, but I need people to carry 2 at a time and run with them all day, but after a couple of days they quit and go and sign on? I need a system in place that will guarentee they become homeless and destitute if they quit,
        to ensure that My slave needs are met.’ ..
        I have NEVER worked for a biz where the boss didnt skim money out of it in cash, put his posh car down as a company vehicle and use every tax avoidance trick in the book, whilst moaning his/her employees ‘didnt work hard enough’ for there monthly in areas paid paye min. or close wage.

        • I appreciate the sentiment, but I think everyone needs to get away from the polarisation between ‘The Poor’ and ‘The Rich’. It’s not helpful to be jealous. If nobody had a successful business, who could afford to employ any of us? My grandfather was an inventor, and built a plastics moulding factory in Manchester which employed hundreds of people. Every week he took massive risks with his own money to keep people in work. His employees loved him. He paid way above the going rate, he gave everyone health insurance and a private pension (before there was a tax allowance for that), and he didn’t stop working until his parkinson’s disease led to a hostile takeover by another big plastics company. He died in a small cottage leaving a very small legacy to his 4 children. He was what some would call ‘capitalist bastard’, but his only thoughts, after his family, were for how he could do more for his staff – pay them more, secure their futures. At least twice when business was bad he mortgaged his home to keep people in work, with no thought for himself. He wasn’t a capitalist, he was a human being with a talent who wanted to share his gift.

          I agree that a lot of back-to-work programs are effectively slave labour. For that you can blame the Labour party, who hired 750,000 people into public service since 1997 to artificially lower the unemployment figures, while at the same time knowing what they would have to borrow to pay for it.

          I’m not a capitalist by any means – capitalism implies making money by selling money, rather than by providing a product or service.

          I’m also not a socialist except in the purest terms – socialism in practice leads to envy and division; look at Bolshevik Russia.

          I’m proud to call myself a Social Libertarian. Government should be small and efficient. We should give the most help we can to the worst off. We should make it easy to start a small business, and then make it easy for that business to employ good workers at good rates of pay. None of this is possible now because of unprecedented levels of regulation.

          Again I say Citizen Payment. No Jobseeker who wants to start a business would have to go to the New Enterprise Allowance. Nobody would have to go without food to attend a job interview. And nobody would have to be scorned by a taxpayer-funded JobCentre puppet for the simple misfortune of being out of work!

          Once again, sorry to rant!

          • I am pleased your grandfather was an honourable employer, but they are now few and far between. I have never actually worked for one. I am not in envy of the rich, or on any class crusade. Almost all biz’s that start up and make good money for all concerned are usually targeted for takeover, so that ‘fat’ can be trimmed off in the form of the ‘goodwill’ between the biz, the employees, and the customers by the new owners for big profits. Even if it means killing the biz and laying everybody off. I suppose my point is that this and previous governments dont give a toss about workers. You are there as tax fodder, and the changes are designed to cripple you if you dont tow there line.
            Always, the worker loses out. Forgive me if that sounds like class envy, but its the truth. I would expect any biz owner to risk there own money, but of course many start ups dont. They employ low paid workers and pay them a month or more in arrears. If everybody declared themselves self employed bizness owners and demanded a cheque each week, the exchequer would be even more bankrupt than it is now!
            Rant over for now . .
            ;#}

            • You’re exactly right. It’s government that’s the problem. They need the problems to exist so that we’ll vote for them to solve the problems! Actually doing anything useful is against their interests.

              It was P J O’Rourke who said ” A politician who promises to cut the size of government is saying he’s going to sneak up on himself and steal his own wallet.”

              The truth is they need us more than we need them, and yet they get all the power because we vote for them. They depend on problems never being solved, just as JSA advisers need unemployed people to justify their own jobs.

              It’s a vicious circle that can only be broken when we all stand up and tell them we’re not going to be dependent on their decisions anymore. Give us all our safety net, but don’t hold us at your mercy for it!

              Nice chatting with you, Pat!

          • I absolutely disagree. I have great regard for your grandfather and his altruistic benevolence, but he and people like him are few and far between.

            The fact is this is very much about the rich and the poor; it is a class war and we are currently losing it.

            It’s not about jealousy; it’s about fairness, about being fairly compensated from the profit we produce. It’s about being treated decently and respected.

            Yes, employers take risks with money and expect a return; but that return is at the expense of the employee and we must never forget, given the opportunity most employees will invest 40+ years of hard work into a company and I believe they should expect more than subsistence wages and a poor pension, only to be booted from their homes by a wealthy, elitist ruling class, to have their only means of income reduced and removed when they cannot work and to be told, all the while they are idle.

            I do not believe we can afford to be sentimental. There is no sentimentality in government; I see none of them crying for justice and the unions may as well be gentleman’s clubs for all the good they seem to be doing.

            All employment should be in public ownership, run through workers co-operatives. The country, government and people rely on workers earning money and spending it; they should be in control of it.

  2. Read also “how much does the Corporate Welfare cost” on Scriptonite Daily. Well worth looking at.

  3. Not to mention that National Insurance, paid by everyone working, is a significant 21.5% of the total collected by HMRC – and National Insurance Funds which pays for certain types of welfare entitlement are in SURPLUS! The wealthy have fuck all to whine about with NI either as they only pay 2% on earnings over the upper limit (which is the same as the limit on higher rate tax).

  4. Given that around another 20% of total tax take comes from VAT, the most non-progressive tax ever, then it just highlights how little really comes from the rest.

  5. And this is where it all falls down because yer werkin class dont read the torygraph . They might get whipped up about scroungers in The SCUM but they do give a toss about the NHS of Which the Torygraph is hell bent on defaming with made up stories…so no one gives a fuck what the torygraph says .Only toffs and wannabe toffs read that shit and they know the truth they wont be clobbered so who is the torygraph preaching to?

  6. Pingback: We Are All Benefit Scroungers Daily Telegraph F...

  7. Toff twats should realise Its the NHS that keeps us alive so we can work like serfs for them. Privatise It and make us pay for healthcare and workers will ask for higher wages.

  8. Short term profit short shortsightedness…

  9. What about all those that pay in but don’t get back what they pay in due to early death for whatever reason

  10. A lot of top and middle income earners don’t even contribute to NI, preferring to be self employed, self centered, self sufficient individuals.
    Some executives pay less tax than their cleaners despite earning more than 10 times their cleaners salary.
    Working class on average have shorter lifespans than the middle and upper classes.

  11. Acording to the propaganda machine we are all middle class.

  12. There is also the fact that National Insurance has both contributions-based and insurance-based components (which i am sure the Coalition would swear blind never existed!) – i can’t put it any better than this Guardian letter published the other week:

    “The discussion of welfare by Ian Mulheirn (Comment, 27 May) and generally conflates two different payments. The first is illustrated by my state pension, which is based on 36 years of contributions (not on the 40 years I could have accumulated, had I not missed four years of national insurance payments). This and work pensions are all – with the exception of bankers’ contractually gold-plated handouts – based on contributions. You get out what you put in.

    The second type of payment is insurance-based. These, like my car insurance, depend upon circumstance (need) and not on totals paid in. If I pile my car up in the first month of the insurance, I get the payout dependent upon circumstances, not on how many years I have held the insurance. If I get no “benefit” from my car insurance, I consider myself fortunate and have no feeling of envy for those who get paid for having their car written off.

    It’s irrational to treat these two situations equally. If someone becomes unemployed, the support they need to find work again is the same no matter how long they have been in work. It is sad to see the Labour party allying itself with the “scroungers” litany.
    David Horler
    Bowness, Cumbria”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/28/contributions-welfare-debate

  13. And if they are not collecting enough of it, suggest they charge the 40% band a bit more than 2% on their surplus labour. Whining fuckers.

  14. So if I don’t claim on my insurance can I claim it all back..just pay the premium if I use it? I despair sometimes at the greedy pigs in this country.

    • And if all these high earners weren’t earning so damned much there would be more for everyone else and less need for welfare reliance. An inconvenient fact they’d sooner overlook I’m sure.

      • And the people who would benefit from a fairer distribution of the wealth would not hoard it in offshore accounts with dubious tax exemptions but would be paying fair taxes and be out spending it, thus creating more jobs, more wealth so the wealthy hoarders of said wealth wouldn’t lose out so much anyway!

        • Which is why we need to get rid of the wages system,and instead have a system where the worker enjoys the full benefit of what they have earned – think about it, how long does it take in your working week to earn the wage you get paid? If it takes a day, then all the money you earn is effectively stolen by your employer, you are doing the work, not your employer, therefore you should be paid that money, as rightfully it is yours, not your employers. Simples

  15. Jeremy Rees

    I have always argued that NI is just that an insurance from which you can claim benefits if unemployed or sick when in need, which the coalition was denying. Even the bbc have an educational package that has re-written history of Beveridges/Atlees welfare state.

    • This is about bringing a cultural change so that we no longer expect the help we pay for and the taxes of the wealthy can be reduced even further, beyond stealing and evading, fiddling and avoiding.

      I will never accept that; I pay the state taxes, so the state owes me and I expect to collect if and when circumstances demand such. If I am fortunate enough and/or wealthy enough never have need to collect, then as I understand the system, my contributions will help somebody else in need.

      That is as it was, is and should remain— but this coalition are determined to change it, knowing full well it will be accepted, in time as the norm. BUT NOT BY ME!

  16. Well, here’s Nick Clegg’s take on it:

    “Welfare should not be there “to compensate the poor for their predicament” but act as “an engine of mobility”.

    “A fair society is not one in which money is simply transferred by the central state from one group to another”

    “Welfare needs to become an engine of mobility, changing people’s lives for the better, rather than a giant cheque written by the state to compensate the poor for their predicament.”

    – er, what on earth did he think it was for then?

    Putting the ‘n’ in Tory Cuts.

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2010/09/16/clegg-the-new-face-of-uncaring-nastiness/

    • Well meaning but clueless words from someone who couldn’t possibly understand. We have all had opinions on things only to find the reality when experienced isn’t quite the same/ quite as simple.

      • They have still have potential but not with Clegg as leader – too cosy with Cam. Clegg shouldn’t really be mentioning social mobility not wise.

    • They make these clever/witty/believable statements that are essentially meaningless in an attempt to mould the psyche of the people and to some extent it works.

      This coalition wants a cultural change, a change from the thinking that social security is essential for the well-being of the individual and the country to the thinking that social security should be so abysmally low, so difficult and degrading to claim only those that really need it will even try to claim

  17. Ed Miliband said something remarkably similar – can’t find the quote right now.

  18. overburdenddonkey

    the infrastructure of britain was built to create and maintain the creation of wealth…and the rich are the main benefactors of this infrastructure, it was built for the rich, by all, we paid for their world, not ours, we paid so that they would and do benefit, now where’s mine?…that they resent paying for what they no longer require, is self evident…generation after generation of the working classes, built britain, paid for it out of their wages, and paid in many other ways(ruining their health known or unknown at the time) to build britain up, to benefit from the creation of this countries wealth…a business person may look down from their private jet, and think i no longer need the railways, roads, schools, nhs, and decide that they no longer wish to pay for what they no longer require, there are many who can all say this at some point in their lives, but without that infrastructure..they could not be where they are…an infrastructure that pro-rata benefits the rich, more than the poor, who basically are glad to get the scraps off of their tables…if i knew what i was paying for, i guess working for a better britain as i thought i was then…would i do the same again,no fcuking way would i..
    ted heath and his phase 1’s and 2’s, bullshit..kidding us on, that i was slogging for buttons, to get britain out of the shit…when in fact i was paying for their lavish lifestyles of riley..so that they had even more money and power to dominate me with, hindesight is a wonderful thing, so i don’t intend to waste it! i will not forfeit the slog of generations for these, over fed and pampered fools, they display shocking callousness, towards all who come before them, and built britain…spinning in their graves, does not quite do it…wiping out, so called freedom! trying to build up a resentment towards the disabled/unabled…discounting all who come before us, and those who suffered, 1979> the decimation of industrial britain..etc etc etc…..

    • Well that’s another one of us who’s worked that one out…
      Just another 64000000 to convince…🙂

    • Perhaps it’s time we decided that we no longer want the rich/politicians and other ‘useless eaters’ leaching off us?

      • overburdenddonkey

        sib…i’ve done that…politics is now bland boring unified bullshit that looks for new pc foes to dump blame on for their failings,,pairing, cash for q’s etc…mavericks all gone…true orators diminished…i want practical solutions…1st land to grow food on etc, etc, how to build bread ovens..how to build shelter, i’m done with committees…can’t eat paper…show me how the turkish et al, people are feeding themselves and providing shelter etc perma-culture eco villages…a social cooperative society..free access to vitals…their biggest mistake is blaming the poor…

      • Agreed, Sib

  19. Heh heh heh! MPShitester here. Of course the rags are gonna say that. We’ve paid them to. Me and my homies at SW1 are implementing the golden rule of conquering. We are dividing the poor into shitty little factions who all want to wipe each other out.

  20. I did not have the time this morning to work on this, but I wondered whether the DT made the calculations on the whole welfare expenditure, or whether they deducted the part which was not pensions to make their calculations. Check with this http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2013UKbn_12bc1n_4050#ukgs302 or here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdHNXNW4yTlNMZllOZmRSOTRWTDNwWXc#gid=11

    • overburdenddonkey

      anita…they use £200bn inclusive figure in the torygraph…which includes a hefty chunk for state pensions..the 2011/12 figures are the same as the guardians…£160bn/£74bn in state pensions.. but as yet i can make no sense of the latest figures on one of your links!

      • Thanks for that. I wanted to check the figures but I had no time today. Also where the figures are coming from? They are not on the Inland Revenue website. Were they fed by the CCHQ? Only to the DT and DM?

      • Dya know what, i read the Torygraph peice, and ill admit i’m no mathematician, but what i got from those figures printed was that the income from 3 to 5 years of your working life gets payed in to a system of insurance for if you fall on hard times, for looking after your health, and paying a basic pension?
        sounds pretty good value to me, what’s the big whinge?

  21. rainbowwarriorlizzie
  22. I just wish Clegg’s ‘engine of mobility’ runs over him.

  23. The National Archives have this little film from 1948 describing the original remit for ‘National Insurance’ – to provide ”high benefits in times of sickness” http://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/charleys-march-of-time/

  24. I’m loving life plebs. Did you enjoy your little protests yesterday. Good luck and keep trying. Alas most of the poor sods in the masses are well & truly shell-shocked now and are stumbling around and surviving on their TV Fix of utter meaningless drivel that the idiot box provides for them. Actually, I just thought I’d let you know that thanks to me you poor sods can still get Sky TV because I told that Bozo Dave and IDS that trying to stop the poor getting Sky subscriptions was going a bit too far. I told them straight “The poor might be incentivised to go out and cause a fuss en masse, and you don’t want that now do you”.
    So, I managed to save that for you my dear little plebians.

  25. I see Cameron plans to attack pensions now in his benefit austerity measures. Whenever he plans to take benefits away from the rich he ends up taking more from the poorest benefit recipients individually, which is not acceptable.

  26. MPShitester

    I’m surprised the likes of you are lowering yourself to trawl the net for sites that interest the “common” people, funny but I thought sky transmitted educational programmes too, so thanks for securing it for us plebs who are not narrowmindedly only watching trash tv.

  27. Petition here to stop compulsory use of Universal Jobmatch.

    http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/49607

  28. When you become disabled after 35 years of working, it doesn’t seem like you are getting value for money. I have paid full NI contributions and taxes, all that time and am only entitled to 365 days of £71pw of either ESA or if miraculously cured by ATOS, 180 days of JSA @£71pw. Now I’m not a mathematician but do have an MSc in Science and 52 x 71=3,640 so obviously 26 x 52 is half of that. Now over 35 years I have paid in much more in NI contributions, so where are they coming from, saying that in effect we are all benefit winners? We never got WTC or CTC, as between us my husband and I earned over £50,000 but my husband’s salary of £35,000 is too much for me to get income based ESA!
    Oh yes, that massive amount of £20pw child benefit? OK it’s for 16 years but 12 x 80 x 16=15,360 and children cost a lot more than that to fed and clothe, plus even a millionaire gets that amount (to date).
    The only way you win, in my opinion, is if you manage to survive at least 10 years past your retirement age. Well I am only 54 but may well have to struggle back into some sort of work for at least another 13 years before I would get a state pension. People younger than I will have to work even longer, currently to age 69, so the likelihood of us surviving that long is reduced, especially those disabled people ATOS have forced to go and do any sort of job. As I cannot do the job I trained for and have no experience of anything else, then I am unlikely to be offered any other work; constantly being told I have no experience or am overqualified, when really the obstacle is my disability!

  29. Is it just me who has noticed there are an awful lot of people who die before the average 76 yrs?
    There relies dont get a refund! Also, most people start work at 16, and now can retire at 67. Thats 51 years pf contributions, not 30, or even the old 40. Dont be fooled by the generosity of this deal,I noticed the dice were loaded at a very young age~
    My grandad died before retiring after duly paying tabacco duties all his working life. We didnt get a rebate!

  30. rellies, i meant..

  31. I’ve never really looked at contributions as being pre-payment to be fair.
    I’ve always considered that everything I pay in goes to support whoever needs it now and then when I’m long in the tooth, it will be up the next generation to return the favour. Assuming they aren’t all working in McPoundlando’s, or whatever workfare goliath has them enslaved.

  32. Dwp sanctioned 2.2 milion people between 2010 and 2012 that is £71.00 x 2.2 million ==
    What has happened to the money? Where did it end up?
    2.2 million people now we know why the unemployment figures kept looking good during a recession which apparently baffled the experts but not the unemployed. These figures should be published in the msm

    • fuck tory rats

      Going by The Daily Mail responses i wouldn’t mind shooting most of the far right bastards in the thread.

    • I would not pay too much attention they still live with their parents. When they end up on welfare themselves they’ll change their tune soon enough.

  33. Eric Greenwood (4727)

    Erm http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/universal-credit-docked-to-recover-rent-arrears/6527269.article In its response to a communities and local government select committee report on the implementation of universal credit, the government says deductions can be up to 5 per cent under existing laws, but it ‘is considering whether this level is appropriate for universal credit, or if it should be increased in the future’ In its response to the report the Communities and Local Government department says the government is committed to the move to direct payment of housing benefit, but it also want to ensure universal credit is introduced ‘in a way that protects the finances of social landlords’. This is just out and scary if true

  34. Scrapping the direct payment to landlord system is just plain stupid,it can only create problems that simply do not exist at present. So why change a system that works ?

    • Eric Greenwood (4727)

      Social Engineering, if they get into debt/rent arrears they will be kicked out and moved onto birmingham or anywhere else therefore opening the property for more well off people..aka Workers

      • There are a good many workers who depend on housing benefit to pay their rent,and they all cant just move away, due to work commitments and various other reasons.

        • Surely thats the biggest push for even the most avid X factor addicted Daily Mail reading moron to go and look at the bigger picture, once the social teat runs dry?
          When are workers going to wake up and realise that the classes that persecute us, wanting more and more from less and less, and fuck those who cant hang on, fuck those who fall ill, are only in such a position from the sweat of our labours?
          The biggest lie fed to us? The world dont owe you a living.
          YES IT FUCKING DOES.
          Basic rights for all, the world over, food, water, shelter. These aint commodities to be traded for financial gain by the likes of Nestle.

          • Well fucking said Ulysses! The basics, such as food, shelter, clothing and healthcare should be free to all as a right, not a privelige subject to sanctioning if you’r face doesn’t happen to fit or if you happen to break some petty rule. This is why we should be planning to support those threatened with eviction due to arrears accrued as a result of the Bedroom Tax. It can be done, for goodness sakes, there are probably several million people protesting against the shit that’s going on in Turkey at the moment, intially over a plan to re-develop some public space – at least that’s the catalyst, there’s far more to it than that. It might not seem like it, but their struggle is our struggle, and vice versa. If the Turks feel that defending a public space from the clutches of rampant captialism is important then I’m damned sure that defending someone’s home from the clutches of rampant capitalism in the form of a local council/housing association is extremely important. Numbers are key – there doesn’t have to be violence, but if bailiffs turn up and see that they are outnumbered ten to one by a group of people who will peacefully block their attempts to enact the eviction order, (and film it, take photos and post on social media) they will probably decide that it would be better to come back another day… Or not at all.

            OK, different time, and slightly different situation, maybe, but it it? It’s about people defending their rights to a home – this info is old, but that’s important to remember too. The campaign is still ongoing, there has been no surrender, the people are still there in 2013.

            http://www.tlio.org.uk/campaigns/holtsfield/index.html

  35. Eric Greenwood (4727)

    yes, but UNDER universal credit they will be pressured to move to a better paid job, More hours and if they dont they will get that money stopped..and back into homeless etc. You have to think two thoughts at the same time and see the connection

  36. “A computer for under £25 will be offered to people on benefits in order to help them get online.

    “The scheme will help 10.8million Britons who may not be able to afford a computer at retail price, as part of a major push to improve the nation’s digital skills.

    “The PC is to go on sale for £24 with a £2.99 per month broadband deal, and includes software worth an estimated £150.”

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2338744/Computers-25-help-11-million-disadvantaged-Brits-benefits-online.html#ixzz2VoyTzypu
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Is this another sign that Universal Credit is destined to fail? Why would a Government give virtually free computers away to people it sees as scroungers – kind heartedness?

    • They really do have a fervent sadistic desire to psychologically torture us with 35 hour a week job searches for jobs that don’t actually exist and keep us under constant surveillance don’t they?

      • Yes. If you look on a daily basis you need spend no more than a few minutes. Been looking just now and there’s literally nothing. A lot of filler stuff with nothing on the end of the hook and an odd real job that has been doing the rounds for months. I applied for one of these rarities only to get my email returned. Thsi kind of faking doesn’t help people get jobs.

        What a person would be doing for 8 hours I’ve no idea but it’d probably drive me/them round the twist.

        • I’ve also been looking just now. I can’t find anything to apply for either, which is stressful because I have to find something by next week. To satisfy the 35 hour a week requirement, you will have to apply for all the available jobs and then once you’ve finished doing that, you’ll have to look at the same jobs you’ve already looked at, over and over again for hours on end, then, when they have driven us completely insane, Atos will do one of their thorough computer says no tick-box medicals, that will find that we are actually completely sane and fit for work.

          • I’ve been applying for all sorts and getting nowhere. Putting fake jobs including old or expired jobs on Universal Jobsmatch just to give the impression that there’s plenty of work out there just causes anger, frustration and demotivation. Bullying people relentlessly knowing that the jobs aren’t there is wicked and not befitting a government who’s job is looking after it’s people (not themselves).

            If the jobs were there it would be a different argument. Until the economy is growing and the genuine jobs are available they should get off people’s backs.

          • R33

            If you can’t find a suitable post to apply I’d advise applying for anything even if you don’t meet the criteria. Within reason of course.

            Better than being sanctioned.

            • Eric Greenwood (4727)

              I agree, apply for apprenticeship jobs, apply for anything thats remotely connected to what you want.. If they say why say well i am hoping that while i may not be entirely suitable i am hoping that they will see my application and think i will hire them in another job. Place the email address on the form/printout, YOU know they dont want you, They know they dont want you, just spam them with jobs

            • Good advice, thanks guys.

    • overburdenddonkey

      jeff…more kindergaten crap from the tories….

    • Eric Greenwood (4727)

      What software will be on it? what keyloggers, and trackers especially if its connected to the government. IF a person is too scared to use a computer and wouldnt know where to start.. it will just be another paperweight.

    • Obi Wan Kenobi

      No doubt there will be conditions attached to this cheapo computer deal, if anyone does go for it I suggest they remove the hard drive and replace it with one with a windows program on it (XP or higher), as the one installed will probably have a worm or unremovable program on it linking you to the DWP, so they can monitor you.

      • Nothing is unremovable, Obi, i can hit you up with a link to freeware program that runs command line script that alters administration rights for almost everything, what it misses is simple enough to take ownership of with Windows own inbuilt tools..
        Ive used it to delete fookin huge rafts of windows code bloatware that was supposedly unremovable
        And i’ve also used it for me own shits n giggles- when my laptop now fires up, HAL 9000’s voice says “Hello Dave” while his big red camera eye fills my screen-
        Small things amuse small minds😉

    • Gateway to a more Productive You’ (GMPYPC)@DWP.gov –

      Includes webcam set to ‘on’ as a default and features value-added technical support 24/7 (£1/minute only for first 3 months). With mandatory (voluntary) optional (non-optional) access to JCP-run IT ‘help’desk, easy to use default settings (‘on’ every day of the week, all being well – between 8am -6pm). May vary due to fluctuating demand (Advisers to advise).
      Featuring limited internet access, Exclusive-only connects to UJM.Gov site.

      Avoid sanctions! Get yours today!

      (“Why did no-one think of this sooner?”), IDS

    • Cash Generator will be rubbing their hands in glee at the glut of £25 computers about to come through their doors.
      I’ve deliberately quit putting electric and gas on the meters at home, i’m refusing to allow their over priced shit through my doors.
      I went all this year without, so far, the gas ran out at Christmas time, and careful use of electric using only 1 led light and a phone charger when needed, ran out last month.
      Im slowly, bit by bit refusing to play on the unlevel fields that Corporate UK has become. The only way i can hurt them is by denying them what they crave.
      Pound Notes.
      Under paid labour.

      I will cut of my own nose to spite my face, but i can hold my head high while i still have the strength to do so.

      So the question i now ask, how the fuck do they intend to power my £25 computer?

      • “So the question i now ask, how the fuck do they intend to power my £25 computer?”

        Make jobseekers ride a bicycle attached to an electricity generator while they do their 35 hour a week job searches?

    • The computers will no doubt be total crap that would probably be better as landfill, as they’d be unlikely to support even the software to run a half decent router/gateway computer using Linux. I wonder what OS will be on such equipment? I doubt they’d run anything as ‘exotic’ as Windows XP, so Win98? The £2.99 broadband is almost bound to be one of those *for the first 3 months, then £XXX a month’ scams, with penalties for early withdrwal, which will kick in as soon as your inevitably sanctioned.

      I wonder, does the “£150 worth of software’ include stuff to track your online activities? And how exactly do they value it at £150? I could probably quite easily value it at £0.00 by coming up with like-for-like sotware that’s Open Source non-commercial and doesn’t contain nasties that might report back on your activities.

      I can understand people wanting to have both a decent computer and affordable access to broadband internet. I’m not sure how to acquire the latter, (and the £2.99 deal does seem suspiciously like a scam to me) but the former can be cheaply achieved by looking around locally for your local anarchist computer repurposers – they do exist, but you need to look and ask around, as they’re often individuals who operate by word of mouth, and may also know how to access eminently affordable internet connection too.

      The only way to combat this evil system is to resist it in every way possible, so instead of meekly complying with ‘digital by default’ decide to yourself that ‘No it bloody isn’t’ and insist that you do it on paper, or face-to-face with a human, (or at least a fair approximation of being human) being. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t get a computer, of course you should, and use it for informing yourself of a better way🙂

      • There ya go, £150 saved right away doing away with microsoft word
        http://www.openoffice.org/

        And the list goes on

        • The strange thing is, though there are free versions of almost all ‘consumer’ software, it isnt that difficult to get it if you are in the know. I.T. Guys the world over know the workarounds etc, but they wont tell you because they want to charge you for an install.(or ‘repair’)
          90 % of software is unpaid for in developing countries. .

          • There is plenty of hacked Windows software around, which is fine if you know what you are doing and are fine with the ethical issues (and not just the fact that it’s technically ‘stolen’ software) and are aware that hacked Windows stuff is possibly badly infected with malware etc. Learning to use Linux or another ‘open’ operating system and the various software alternatives to the usual Windows stuff takes a bit of time, but there are plenty of useful guides and huge amounts of help available from the user community, who won’t charge you anything. With the more ‘user friendly’ distros, installation is a breeze, (and attached hardware seems to be detected and the needed drivers auto-installed much of the time) and the customisation options are almost limitless – any of the Ubuntu family would be a good start, though personally I’d suggest that Lubuntu or Kubuntu would be a good choice if you’re used to Win XP. There is no need to get rid of Windows either, as the installation option offers to install the Linux distro alongside your Windows install – though please defrag Windows first if you want to avoid data loss.

            I’m using Lubuntu on Pentium 4 hardware I literally found on the street where someone had thrown it out. I added a 1GB module of RAM that I had kicking around, and whilst it isn’t scorchingly fast, it’s plenty adequate for surfing and will even manage to stream BBC iPlayer with a little lag, but nothing that makes it unwatchable, and I’m sure I could cure that with a bit of tweaking, but it’s ideal as my bedroom computer, also serving as alarm clock radio and bedside access to JV!

            Great to see that suspicions have been risen over this offer though🙂

            As a bit of fun, you could also ask your job coach if they’ll put you on an IT Tech Support course of some kind, as that will at least contain an element of how to install software like OSes and how to work with hardware – six years ago I would have been terrified to open the case of my computer, but then I became unemployed and managed to get put on a C&G course in IT Tech Support.

            Sadly times have changed, and the last thing the poverty pimp companies want is to pay out money they might not get back, (well, they won’t if we do our job properly and don’t allow them to track us)
            sending us on expensive courses, but it’s worth a try.

            As an aside, apologies for posting a lot, I’m having trouble sleeping, and am just too near one of my reclaimed computers that cost me a fraction of £25…(some of them literally less than 25p, though admittedly that one, with 64MB of RAM is a bit slow).

            • I am running (insert a number here) fully supported by the software hse with the updates, and it didnt cost me a penny. I cn put it on as many machines as i want. Also office stuff. My box is a donor dual vsta asrock mainboard, and the processor is an e6600 core2duo that I stripped out of a failed cctv server along with 2 gig
              of kingson hyper X ram. cpu clocks are at stock because of via chipset limits,and the ram is at 333. I run a radeon 3850 512 graphics card (£22 from C.E.X, @webuy.com ).
              The psu is the main expense(£53 600watt corsair) but this is the most important part of the system.
              In 9 years of learning about fixing and building pc’s, I have never paid for software. Being a gamer, linux wont do.
              There are plenty of 2005/6/7 era machines being thrown out, people in need should ‘keep em peeled’. I would leave a P4 in the street.

            • If you get your keygen software direct from the guys writing the code, there is very very little chance of trojan infections, same with the RemoveWAT and Dazloader scripts for the more adventurous!
              But, all Antivirus will flag these as Trojans or at the very least PUP’s for the very reason you state… They don’t want you ripping of the multimillion pound corporations writing software! The flags and nags are there to scare the crap out of those not very savvy with the tech
              If got from source, these scripts are NOT virus or malware!

        • OO is ok, but isn’t as up to date as its fork, Libre Office, but the principle is the same, anything that reduces the grip of Microshaft has to be good – though you have to remember to save your documents in a Word format as there is nothing so pitiful as watching your Word using job coach trying to open an .odt format document in Word without the needed plugin🙂 (Which hardly any of them will be able to install, even if they actually know if it in the first place)

      • Obi Wan Kenobi

        Windows 98 and even Windows 98 SE are notoriously unstable as they are based on the earlier unstable x86 system, also you won’t get the needed security updates from Microsoft, however there is an independant update package online but you have to search for it.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_98

        • Windows 95 and 98 will not run on a machine that was designed for XP, as 95/8 does not have the chipset drivers. We are talking a technology limit of 1.4 gig pentium 3 tualatin cpu’s here, but they were rare. Most machines that 98 supports are about 0.8 gig chips. You cant put 98 on newer machines than that as it will not function!
          And yes, I have tried.

          • Its even a royal pain in the arse getting a fairly modern system designed for 7 to run XP
            Not very long ago, i’m only talking middle of last year when i stopped doing this, it was horrendous trying to get DAW like Ableton Live8 to run on 7 – introduce Traktor to the mix and it was almost unworkable.
            Dual boot with 7 for everyday use and xp for music software only used to be the most reliable solution.
            Getting drivers for a modern system to work on XP is feat of ingenuity but just possible..
            ’98 as Pat says is impossible.
            Dont get me started on machines designed for Vista!

            • 7 runs anything you put it on, as the driver support is the best in the world. Seriously, what it is capable of is awe inspiring. I have put 7 on machines loaded with old non p&p sound cards, unknown onboard video, grafix cards you never heard of, £8 wifi dongles, etc etc All with driver software disks long lost. It takes 7 about 20 mins to find it all online and get it all running. Any machine designed for vista will run 11 % faster with 7, use half the ram and be compatible beyond
              any non mac you have ever used. .
              Its great.

            • Anyway, I dont know much about software, but have a pretty comprehensive knowledge about hardware, esp intel. There are a million boxes out there with fuckwit celeron single core chips in that could take 2nd hand £30 quad cores, and this is where us peops should be scoring. Big power, small money.

  37. Obi Wan Kenobi

    What if you don’t want a computer? is the Jobcentre/DWP going to sanction you for refusing to take this deal if you’re unemployed?

    • No, you just say that as your money has been calculated as the bare minimum to live above the poverty line, you cant afford one. People are already complaining about yet another perk for
      the idle. But you have been able to buy a pentium 4 box with fresh Windows xp pro for £25
      at any pc fare for years and years. As a country, We send 1000’s of em to africa out of charideee. .
      Most mobile fones are as capable on line.

  38. Has anyone heard from “something survived”, I hope he has obtained a job in the literary field?

    • something survived...

      Still here… trying to cope with 3000 emails that shut me down., Coping by deleting them but even that takes ages.

  39. Now you mention it Guy, no..
    I wish him well in any new venture!

    An aside, have you noticed despite the nay sayer trolling arses earlier this year insisting blogs like this are useless and are whining to the same old 9 or so users, the number of new user names seems to be steadily accumulating?

    • overburdenddonkey

      ulysses…thanks for the software tip it fixed my shockwave player…me i use an led headtorch…i use the least i can….

      • Glad to be of help, my system is stripped down for a very specific purpose, but a lot of the performance tweaks i have done to mine are fairly universal what ever you use your pc for

    • Blogs like this are great for discussion and keeping up to date, but in and of themselves are not as effective as direct action. This is hard in a ‘direct’ sense, but it’s worrying that there are still people coming on here in a sense of desparation as they discover suddenly that they are facing potential sanctions, especially when this site has been here for a while, and thers is the Boycotte Workfare site and the others too. How many, I wonder, have actually made use of the consent.me.uk standard letter to withhold consent, and refused to yield personal information to their bullying jobcoaches in the Workfare companies? It’s also apparent that relatively few are challenging their sanctions, which have often been filed in a very sloppy way, so much so that they aren’t even enforcable according to the DWPs own guidelines – which set out, step-by-step how to write a MAN and JSD, even to the extent of providing examples, and the poverty pimsp still get it wrong! Even if your not going to win, (and that’s far from a foregone conclusion) it still worthwhile to challenge the sanction, and to take it to appeal, ensuring that it costs the DWP and the poverty pimp companies as much money as possible.

      I can understand the need to offload, and here is a good place as at least there is (usually) empathy here, but make that anger count, and redirect it in a postive way to yourself by using the system against itself. You don’t even have to do it on your own, find a local resistance group, and if there isn’t one, do it yourself. Even then, you don’t need to do it on your own, I’m sure that the people behind Boycott Workfare would be more than happy to help and could put you in touch with people ready and willing to help you get going.

      Blogs are great, but they are a bit invisible, and that’s what the government will tolerate as all seems calm on the outside. When that discontent it being regularly expressed on the streets it get a little embarrassing – for them!

    • something survived...

      Did have job in literary field till I got sacked and blaclklisted…

  40. anonymouse user

    Looks like the PCS are getting their comeuppance, as Jobcentres are starting to replace their members with non-unionised, unpaid workfare serfs. COULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED TO A NICE BUNCH OF SCABS!

    • Of course the PCS (the union, not neccessarily the rank and file members) needs to be thoroughly admonished for not taking a firm stand against Workfare and sanctions. It may be that anything overtly ‘political’ is ruled out of bounds as far as union action is concerned, and that they must restrict themselves to genuine work related issues, but at the very least they could have been a little creative and made a case that encompassed that.

      I hate to see anyone losing their job, and even though there are some real bastards out there, I hope that we’d extend a welcome to those JCP workers who do/will come over to our side – I’m sure there are already former JCP staff who read this blog, and perhaps even comment, who are terrified to ‘come out’ as such, fearing the roasting that some commenters on here would surely give them. I can understand the urge to do that, but it does our cause no favours to do that, these individuals are potentially a huge asset to us, they know the system, and how to get around it, to frustrate it etc.

  41. Sibrydionmawr

    JCP staff do know the system and are prepared to work within it following orders, not work outside of it for the unemployed’s benefit. Anyone worth their salt would not work there if forced to hand out sanctions.

    • I can see both sides of the coin here, although I’m more inclined to never forgiving the camp guards. As Guy said, anyone with half an ounce of social conscience in the first place would never take a job where harm is caused to the most vulnerable.
      But that said, I can see the uses of a gamekeeper turned poacher.

  42. Off topic – tv tonight ch4 The human swarm – if in doubt that we are all cattle or livestock this programme claims to prove it!

  43. Obi Wan Kenobi

    Jobseekers try to overturn law denying them benefit rebates.

    Lawyers say Iain Duncan Smith undermined jobseekers’ rights with legislation allowing DWP to ignore court judgments.

    Iain Duncan Smith and parliament have conspired to undermine the basic rights of hundreds of thousands of jobseekers by enacting retrospective emergency legislation, according to the contents of a legal filing sent to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).

    Tessa Gregory, from Public Interest Lawyers, said the retroactive legislation was a “flagrant abuse of power” and her firm would be launching a judicial review in two weeks unless Duncan Smith backed down and repealed the act.

    “This was a flagrant abuse of power,” she said. “It interfered in an ongoing judicial process and deprived our clients of their right to claim back what was wrongly taken from them. Contrary to the assurances Iain Duncan Smith gave parliament, the legislation is not compatible with the Human Rights Act and it is in clear breach of EU law.

    “Unless the DWP seeks the repeal of the act and accepts that it is unlawful, we will issue judicial review proceedings.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jun/11/jobseekers-law-denying-benefit-rebates

  44. Tantalus😉

  45. Brilliant news Obi wan kenobi providing ids does not profferacceptable legislation to deny those sanctioned and stop the public interest lawyers from proceeding with their threat.

    • Obi Wan Kenobi

      I can see IDS and other DWP cronies doing prison time over this.

      • Fuck Or BUST!
        Guys, I just (22.00 ish) came across a group of about fifteen Various aged but mostly young uns workers in the north east corner of southgate’s Asda store, and some skinny Tart was giving them the ‘right attitude’;
        ‘First off you have to stand on all feet when I am talking ‘; THAT sort of bollox! I am pretty sure they were workfare or summat. They dont start employees in those numbers. Seems like Asda is ripe for a picket; i was bloody disgusted to how she was talking to them to the point I said I would tell her to go FUCK herself.

  46. Sorry, south east corner. .

  47. At my local Asda they were getting workers to stand holding up a sign at the end of tills reading no queue here. They all looked embarrassed and bored stiff so I titled one under the arm to cheer them up and told them I thought it was disgusting to turn them into human statues.

  48. titled should read tickled.

  49. I now pronounce you “lord of the rings”, till rings that is!

  50. Pingback: I agree with The Daily Mail: Name us and shame us! | The Iron Bridge

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  52. Thanks, a really interesting read – added to bookmarks so will check back for new content and to read other people’s comments. Cheers again.

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