Carry On Big Brother

The Government that promised Civil Liberties are falling over themselves attempting to enforce ever more draconian measures aimed at snooping on the population.

Proposed legislation means that GCHQ will be able to hack into anyone’s communications without even having to give a reason.  This differs from the current situation whereby several state bodies can already access the same information if they give a reason.  Over half a million ‘information requests’ were made by public bodies last year to access ‘traffic data’.  Just like under the proposed legislation, this means data on who you talk to and when, but not what you actually say.  Spooks can of course access this as well, they just need a Home Office warrant. Apparently all this isn’t enough for the peeping toms at GCHQ.

That the Government seem to think that these powers should be extended suggests they are laying the groundwork for GCHQ to routinely monitor everybody’s communications details and online activity.

GCHQ will never have to buy themselves a drink again as tabloid hacks suck up to them in an effort to find out what kind of porn Hugh Grant looks at or whether Katie Windsor is googling diet pills.

GCHQ are also involved with the design and implementation of Iain Duncan Smith’s magical Universal Credit database.  This will contain details on everyone who’s ever claimed any form of benefit and will also be harmonised with the current tax office database (in their dreams).

Information that could be held will include details of health problems and disability assessments should you ever claim sickness benefits.  Monthly income details are to be reported to the state in ‘real time’.  Should you ever claim Housing Benefit the database will contain full details of housing status, including how many rooms you have, who lives with you and scans of your bank statements.  Any job search activity you may carry out whilst unemployed (or working part time) will be recorded, along with details from private providers such as A4e.   The database will also contain your tax return or PAYE information, details of your children, your partner (and how much they earn if you claim Child Benefit), your bank account details and anything else Iain Duncan Smith can think of before the new tax and benefits system is introduced in 2056.

Currently the Government are tendering for private companies to provide Identity Services – this will be the way in which you access the Universal Credit database which is set to be only available via the internet or telephone except in very few cases.  Voice Biometrics, meaning a ‘voice print’ which is unique to individuals, is one option being considered.  That this is in the pipeline at the same time GCHQ are plotting to extend telephone surveillance suggests that the spooks have a better idea of joined up government than ministers currently do.

At present benefit claims also require some form of ID, usually a passport or driving licence.  It is likely that the Universal Credit database will also therefore contain your photograph, as well as a copy of your birth certificate.

If the Government get their way GCHQ will have all this information available in one handy place, which they can then cross reference with their own snooping which will tell them which websites you visit, who your friends are and how often you ring your mum.

The situation is truly chilling except for the fact that the whole sorry racket is to be run by a bunch chinless toff wonders who can’t even eat a pasty without causing a national embarrassment.

Voice biometrics over clunky telephone system is a fantasy with the current technology available.  IDS is about to waste a lot of money finding that out.  A Government Minister who knows fuck all about computers has been given £2 billion to spend on IT and every shark in the industry wants a slice of it.  It was only recently the DWP were getting all excited about ‘lie detection’ software before abandoning it in a sulk.  Voice Biometrics will likely go the same way.

Universal Credit has already been described as ‘pie in the sky’ by DWP insiders.  The privacy implications are only starting to emerge, not because the Government has actively tried to cover them up, but just because it doesn’t even appeared to have occurred to them.  There is no great conspiracy, just a monumental cock up waiting to happen.  If the Illuminati overlords did exist (and they really don’t so please just stop), then they wouldn’t go within a mile of fuckwits like Iain Duncan Smith and Chris Grayling.  They couldn’t get in the fucking Woodcraft Folk, never mind a shadowy new world government.

Universal Credit will be an expensive disaster.  When Working Tax Credits were introduced, which are far simpler, the online interface was abandoned after hundreds of thousands of people jammed the phone calls complaining that it didn’t fucking work.  IDS is attempting to create the most expansive, and indeed draconian database ever made in the world, on a cheap budget and to an unrealistic timescale.  This won’t bother the likes of Accenture and IBM who have the bulk of the contracts to deliver the new IT.  It’s in their interests to string the Government along for as long as possible.  After all, once you’ve spent £2 billion then it’s difficult not to be persuaded to spend another.  Universal Credit will be just around the corner, just a little more time and cash required, until finally someone puts the whole sorry project to bed and IDS is sacked.

This doesn’t mean that millions won’t suffer in the carnage as new systems don’t work, benefits don’t get paid, fraud runs rampant and well meaning DWP staff haven’t got a clue how the fucking thing works.  On planet Oxbridge they think that almost everyone will be able to use the online interface, because of course everyone has a computer, broadband and scanner and all the other bits of kit required.  In reality lots of benefit claimants can’t even afford a land line, something inconceivable to the public school toffs in this Government.  Local Authorities are to be left to pick up the slack for those unable to use the labyrinthine database online according to current plans.  Council Tax payers will foot the bill for this Government’s lack of understanding of how most benefit claimants actually live.

The spooks are no better.  Despite recent attempts to recruit anyone who can speak Arabic in a Bradford accent, by advertising in the Guardian of all places, they are still stuffed to the brim with chinless toffs.  MI5 is far more Johnny English than it ever was James Bond.  Whilst they may have fantasies of perving over the nations porn habits any large scale information analysis would be hugely expensive.  And it’s easily got round by doing what drug dealers, activists and presumably terrorists have been doing for years – not chatting about sensitive shit on the phone or online.

It is of course a concern that such vast information gathering powers may be used by any future dictator who may happen to claw their way to power.  But then dictators don’t tend to worry much about the illegality of hacking someone’s twitter account when they are hauling people off to labour camps.

There’s no doubt that the Government is terrified of further civil unrest.  But whilst GCHQ are pissing about trying to find out who you share kitten pictures with on facebook the kids will be burning out department stores the old fashioned way, just like they did last Summer.

That doesn’t mean these new initiatives shouldn’t be resisted. All increases of state power are bad news.  But let’s not get carried away.  All Government’s are incompetent.  GCHQ will welcome the fact their budget is secure, but their dreams of vast Orwellian state surveillance techniques  remain little more than fantasies.  For every over-arching database or internet monitoring system they bring in there is some kid in their bedroom working out how to bring it down.  Governments don’t win because they are cleverer than their citizens.  Political power still comes out of the barrel of a gun, not a USB port.

This post is dedicated to all the conspiracy types who turned with their youtube videos and revelations after David Icke linked to this post on the Universal Credit database.  The last time the fruitcake linked to this blog he claimed it “encapsulates the bile, hatred and puerile nature of so many on the ‘Left’ who claim to be ‘anti-system’ when the system is in complete control of what they bravely call their ‘minds’.”

Presumably he was too slaughtered to remember.

81 responses to “Carry On Big Brother

  1. love the pic, great post, I am quite speechless that they can even be allowed to think this far never mind consider implicating it.

    I just cannot understand how they are being allowed to be so glib with our personal sensitive data under our privacy laws?

    It really is unthinkable that shit like this could go ahead.

  2. love1salluneed

    Great post. What I wish I knew is how is this going to be ‘policed’ What laws are being quickly written to allow further infringement on our few freedoms remaining. If they do not employ voice recognition there will be something close (like the frequency of voice being recorded) and matches made. This is yet more of the police state creep as we lose our ability to be anonymous and private people, rather than citizens of state.

    If people are too gullible to believe this is only going to get worse, then on their heads be it. I can see this totalitarian creep reaching further and further and intrusively into our last remaining private spaces.

    There is no political party who will refuse to further the current onslaught into privacy, my biggest fear is where is this all going to stop. If the’ Beast in India is incrementally enlarged to the point of bursting with our private and confidential data – just how ‘safe’ is all the very valuable information?

    • Hi Our info is not safe in India as someone else pointed out they are not obliged to adhere to EU privacy rules and regs like we are.

      In this world of Jeremy Kyle lie detector tests what they fail to mention is a high percentage can be invalid for a variety of reasons so I imagine any such system they use will be the same and many people will be falsely accused.

      I think I will use a voice changer that should do it-)

      you said

      my biggest fear is where is this all going to stop.

      Chipped from birth to death probably if it not stopped now.

      • ‘I think I will use a voice changer that should do it-)’

        learn to speak with a Jock accent….
        though a Dalekiser, does sound cool
        😉

        • Hi AXEL

          short from changing my eyes for another’s I would search for all manner of device and practice to Feck them about as they do us. I have suddenly become attached to trying out Islamic dress when I go out and about -) That and a voice changer should do it haha.

          Oh I forgot just in case they do weight/unique walk recognition as well make sure you wear 2 sizes too big shoes and walk with a limp……….hahaha

  3. Quoting Johnny Void….

    “Universal Credit has already been described as ‘pie in the sky’ by DWP insiders. The privacy implications are only starting to emerge, not because the Government has actively tried to cover them up, but just because it doesn’t even appeared to have occurred to them. There is no great conspiracy, just a monumental cock up waiting to happen. If the Illuminati overlords did exist (and they really don’t so please just stop), then they wouldn’t go within a mile of fuckwits like Iain Duncan Smith and Chris Grayling. They couldn’t get in the fucking Woodcraft Folk, never mind a shadowy new world government.”

    Oh dear, what a shame, you have just lost all credibility on a massive scale. Wow, you was doing so well too. Who are you tying to impress by making such a statement? I thought you was way more informed than that johnny, but it seems you are just mainstream piss artist diverting attention..

    Thinking about Labours re-election are you johnny? You should of kept such comments out of your opinion pieces, everything you say now is meaningless.

    What a shame….

    • fair enough, maybe they would let IDS in the woodcraft folk

      • I’m just disappointed…. There are bigger agendas at play here, and you seem to be dismissing them out of hand, a very big mistake… I hope you will reconsider and be a little more adept at joining up the dots..

        Johnny, so much you say is so on the button, please don’t spoil it by making such dismissive statements. Does that mean you become a conspiracy theory gook bucket? No? But making blanket statements like that above worries me a great deal….

        [Sorry, I didn’t click reply on my post below]

  4. Wow what a post- but remember the toffs are using the old trick of divide and rule. With opinion polls coming out with things like the majority think those in work should always get more then someone out of work or on the sick. The rich have accountants that are paid to find loop-holes to avoid tax. Surely if the country needs to tighten it’s belt a far more logical way to collect more money would be to start at the top. They can say this will lead to a flight of those top-tax-paying individuals, but if they make their money in this country then they should obey UK tax law to the letter and in spirit!

    • ‘they should obey UK tax law to the letter and in spirit!’

      …but thats the point, if you invest in certain areas, you have a lower tax burden

      the law quite firmly says, if you invest in Company X, which does Process Y, you will pay a lesser CGT.

      where do you think all the investment for windfarms and such crap comes from?

  5. I’m just disappointed…. There are bigger agendas at play here, and you seem to be dismissing them out of hand, a very big mistake… I hope you will reconsider and be a little more adept at joining up the dots..

    Johnny, so much you say is so on the button, please don’t spoil it by making such dismissive statements. Does that mean you become a conspiracy theory gook bucket? No? But making blanket statements like that above worries me a great deal….

    • blanket statements like what – there is no illuminati or secret world government? there isn’t. get over it.

      • Just remember everyone has a right to their own opinions please and while we are slagging each other off we become divided again.

      • Oh dear, Jonny, demonstrates he hasn’t got a clue what hes talking about, and is just another little uni grad, indoctrinated shill for the Labour party…You are controlled opposition..

        It was Labour that brought in all the current welfare reforms in the first place? Yet johnny likes to ignore that like its nothing… Everything that is currently happening The Labour party laid the foundations for.. Where was Johnny void then? That’s right, probably helping the Labour party put them all in to place?

        Bahh, you have shown your true colors Johnny… Its good enough for the anarchists you whip up, but other than that, your a waste of space..

  6. http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/
    http://cpexposed.com/

    Now look at the Goldman Sachs websites?
    Now Look at the a4e Web sites?
    Now look at the Sencia Websites?
    Now look at the Serco websites?
    Now look at the g4s Websites?

    What do you see Johnny?

    They are all private companies spouting the same message? They are all companies that are running many of the welfare to work contracts, they are all obsessed with charity, they are all obsessed with non-profit, they are all obsessed with social control, They are all obsessed with children and citizenship, they are all operating their own polices and own agendas that is bypassing our parliament…They are reducing parliament to a tick box exercise? It does not matter if you agree or disagree, what matters is that you at least try and see what’s really going on.

    You say nothing about the EU? Why? Why do you keep attacking the leaves, rather than the root?

  7. Oh look, now i am being moderated… SHILL!!!!!

  8. If you say so, i would not be so sure of that Johnny…

    • i’m pretty sure you are making a twat of yourself too, do continue, please, it is most entertaining😀

      • No problem Axel… When someone just attacks you, that means I’ve landed a punch, so please carry on?🙂

    • it can mean you’ve landed a punch. it can also mean you’re being a dick.

      • Maybe so, but your articles demonstrate that you have an excellent grasp on things Johnny, and my attempts to engage with you has been met with derision and disdain. So much for caring about the homeless, the disabled and the disadvantaged then eh?

      • Having shit politics doesn’t get you any victim points I’m afraid.

        Why don’t you have a look at how you’ve attempted to engage? Coming on here and insulting me is not the best way to win me over.

  9. Johnny, just making a simple point, that things are not always in plain view that is all… I’m a bit of a fan of your blogs, so don’t get the wrong idea and please don’t stop what your doing… I just think being so dismissive of wider angles is just a shame..

  10. I’m dismissive of anything that has no evidence for it. the reason for that is when people make things up they often turn out not to be true.

  11. Fair enough, but depends what you regard as evidence? What is the best place place to hide something? Right in front of your nose where you wont bother to look. You seem to be trapped in the left/right paradigm. A simple question, lets say Labour get -re-elected? Do you think and believe in your heart of hearts that Labour will do anything to reverse the current welfare polices? You know as well as i do, it is never going to happen? So, what is it you are actually campaigning for?

    • I know what you mean about the ‘wider angles’, i think Cameron is edging scotland to independence, so he can dump 50 odd labour members of parliment, securing tory hegemony over westminster for at least the next generation.

      I also think, they only expected to get half of this crap through westminster, losing a lot of it on the way as acceptable casualties

  12. Where on earth do you get the impression I’m a labour supporter from? You’ve just invented it. Hardly a recommendation for your analysis and research skills is it.

  13. you really think there’s only three choices?

    • No, but it doesn’t take a brain of Britain to work out that there are only three main party choices that stands the biggest chance of obtaining power to change things? You aint UKIP, and you aint BNP. You aint no Lib Dem either. * Shrugs *

  14. I think perhaps it’s you that’s missing the wider picture

  15. simon: wehat are your views on ‘bigger angles’?

  16. Then why don’t you educate.. I’m all ears?

  17. good, keep reading then

  18. After you answer the question put to you, that you don’t answer, that’s too much of a winder angle tho isn’t it🙂

  19. You may have noticed I write a blog about my political views. I don’t really feel the need to restate them in the comments.

  20. Fair enough johnny, but i notice that you are your friends go a little bit wobbly when someone approaches you that’s not coming at you from the traditional left/right perspective, like a Conservative, Lib Dem, or a disaffected Labour position? So lets see if you can restate this in your political views repeatedly in the months and years to come…

    Labour will not be changing anything to do with welfare polices now or in the future, and i know this, but i wont be suggesting that in my views, because Labour are nothing more than controlled opposition that has been so discredited its completely ridiculous and obvious to a child.

    Campaigning as an activist for Labour is both pointless and meaningless, so what should we do? How about repeatedly asking what Labour is going to do to change the nasty fascist polices Labour have implemented with the help of the controlled right, namely the conservatives… How and when are Labour going to stop private companies from profiting from the unemployed? How is Labour going to stop the abuse and degradation they have actually created? When are Labour activists going to be challenged on the deceit they have engaged in to deceive the people of this country?

    Does this help johnny…

    • Simon you said

      How about repeatedly asking what Labour is going to do to change the nasty fascist polices Labour have implemented with the help of the controlled right, namely the conservatives… How and when are Labour going to stop private companies from profiting from the unemployed? How is Labour going to stop the abuse and degradation they have actually created

      Simple answer is they won’t.

      • Thanks bbest.

        Exactly? So what platform is Johnny targeting here? Or is he just playing games and wasting every bodies time and energy? Labour are no good, The Lib Dems are no good, The Tories are no good. We all have to achieve a greater understanding of what is undermining everything in this country… That is not left or right, that is not BNP, that is not UKIP, that isn’t anything. I am talking about what is fundamentally and systematically being done to this country in the background right under our noses and how its being done and implemented. Our entire political system is being destroyed, Johnny wants to ignore the signs or does not want to see them…… That means he wastes his time, your time and everybody else’s time… He wants to keep things in the left/right box, this approach is no longer good enough…

        • Simon I enjoy Johnny’s posts as I like his style of writing and knowledge he has on subjects that effect us ordinary folk in the crap situations our government has put us all in.

          I do not believe any political party in this country is fit for purpose and that despite rhetoric from all sides they truly are only in it for themselves.

          I have no idea what the answer is accept revolution and possibly the country down all tools together for as long as it takes to at least take this bunch of thieving wannabe Thatcherites down.

          That would at least be a start lol

    • i just like arguing :*

      • Axel.. Have you anything to contribute apart from attacking me. I am not criticising Johnny, despite what he thinks, I am simply requesting he doesn’t dismiss things so easily…

  21. Agree with all of that… So what? Lets all keep pissing and moaning? We all individually have to do something different, forget political parties, they are rapping everyone in broad daylight… Sick of it.

    • Simon I get sick of it all as well but unless people really get to grips with all this in numbers big enough to matter we have to be satisfied with small victories such as marching on workfare shops etc.

      I am ill so I call local shops and charities demanding to know if they take workfare claimants and generally making a nuisance of myself to anyone I feel deserves it. I cannot get out to march, believe me if I could I would.

      • Sorry to hear that you not well bbest and like you I’m doing similar things, … But we keep attacking a system that’s creating the problem in the first place? This is the 21st century? Yet we seem to be sliding into a tyrannical, chaotic, dangerous world, and they are destroying lives with impunity… The Labour activists and their leaders should be disgusted with themselves the vile creatures..

        • Simon

          I tried to study the EHR and it does appear that certain articles are being broken despite government denials to the contrary.

          I joined a lawyer blog and tried to ask those questions and while some said it may be possible in the future at the moment they don’t know of any cases pending and stated it was a difficult one to prove.

          They were aware of the Riley case against workfare which is a HR issue so maybe they are waiting to see if they can win that.

          It seems to me many more will die before anything is done and that makes me very angry and sad.

      • love1salluneed

        Well said. I have thought about this question so much lately, just why are people not making more noise about everything that is happening, as more and more crap is being thrown our way. I suppose there will always be those who believe one person can make little or no difference, hence apathy, but there is more than one of us out out here.

        If I could get out and wave a huge banner and ‘maintain a total lack of cooperation with the powers that be, and any one or thing in authority I would! So instead I do my bit, small though it is, by thoroughly reading various things of interest and flagging it up to the rest out here on various pages I am on. Plus I tweet, twitter and blog, post poetic prose on poetry sites and write articles all of which ask questions in an attempt to engage others’ grey matter. Spin-rinse-repeat.

        • love1salluneed

          I agree I might not be able to do a great deal but I will keep on in anyway I can in my own way to raise awareness and pester companies, people I can who I believe are doing wrong.

  22. * Raping…

  23. love1salluneed

    Have enjoyed reading all the responses and replies here. Good to get a debate of some kind going in an open way. I dedfinitely see the need to adopt a wider picture of what is happening all around us. As I said totalitarian creep. Yes I have no doubt microchipping but I think these will be the edible kind or the inbjecting type, I have read it is actually in some foods we swallow, and in vaccines. Whether it is or whether it isnt – is not the question, the question is has it already been implemented somehow? All this data collection going on, including the latest cock ups now with the governments need (greed) for information (is power) re snooping bill/laws, we shall see I am sure.

    To think there is not a fuller agenda being foisted on the gullible is to make a huge mistake. In order to engage with one’s ‘enemy’ one must know it, understand it and be ready to deal with it openly. Sometimes this will doubtless make one look a fool, but you would be a bigger fool to dismiss it out of hand.

    As for labour doing anything different than any other party in power. No. It aint happening. From my perspective they are also mere puppets whose strings are being pulled too. Remember they started the break up of the welfare state, NHS and this rather distasteful need for knowledge (power) ie gobbling up our privates (data)

    aherm……

    • The wider agenda being foisted on the public is neo-liberal economics – that means unregulated capitalism, mass privatisation of public services and the erosion of the welfare state. It is also believed that this will mean government’s will be come little more than administrative bodies which exist to allow the free market to operate.

      The growth of surveillance despite that reveals the flaw in this thinking, extreme capitalism benefits a tiny minority at the expense the of general population – therefore ever increasingly state power will be needed to keep the proles from murdering the rich whilst they sleep.

      • Johnny

        you stated

        The wider agenda being foisted on the public is neo-liberal economics – that means unregulated capitalism, mass privatisation of public services and the erosion of the welfare state.

        I agree but it cannot go on forever can it? I would have thought in the end that is unsustainable and what then? Yes I hope they get murdered in their sleep lol

      • I don’t think it is sustainable, and we are seeing that being played out now. the problems is that all three parties in the UK, and most right wing or social democratic parties across europe are so locked into it now they can’t put the foot on the brake. This is why we keep hearing the mantra – more austerity, more marketisation, more competition – they’ve got nowhere else to go. of course a lot of people are also getting very rich on the back of it which helps maintain the insanity.

        When people say it’s not about righ or left they tend to mean we need to look beyond labour and the tories, we absolutely do, not because the left is equally corrupt and damaging but because there is no left. All parties are wedded to a right wing economic doctrine that is showing ever increasing signs of collapse. That is no reason to abandon the principles of the libertarian left, of collectivism, autonomy, worker and bottom up control, in fact it is it is a reason to pursue. Capitalism has run rampant and failed almost all of us. That should meet a fierce and militant response, not conspiracy theories about secret governments that dont actually exist (or need to exist to get us to where we are)

    • love1salluneed

      It took me ages to find the form that supposedly opts you out of all things centralised for the NHS and when I went to my doc I made her scan it into the computer lest anyone forgot at least I made my stand lol

      you said

      I have read it is actually in some foods we swallow, and in vaccines. Whether it is or whether it isnt – is not the question, the question is has it already been implemented somehow? All this data collection going on, including the latest cock ups now with the governments need (greed) for information (is power) re snooping bill/laws, we shall see I am sure.

      Only yesterday I was watching all about dodgy vaccines from animal organs etc but what really angered me was the fact they can now be easily made from synthetics yet they still refuse to do so and continue using animals instead.

      you said

      To think there is not a fuller agenda being foisted on the gullible is to make a huge mistake.

      I agree but its trying to understand exactly what that is.

      MIKi67

      you said

      The corrupt have the upper hand,worldwide. Here,in our polluted little island,we have a wholly corrupt Parliament. They need to go….

      What we are witnessing is the death throes of Capitalism,and wild beast that it is,it won’t go quietly.

      I agree and most people do not want to look this squarely in the face pretending instead something, someone will sort it out if they keep their heads down and ignore it which is actually making the problem worse.

      They pretend they are intelligent but any one with any intelligence realises that profits cannot possibly go up year in year out, or that the earth has infinite resources that can go on year after year, or that people can be made to work until they drop having more and more squeezed out of them until there is nothing left to make up the figures.

      Lets not even think about WW3 they are trying to foist upon us.

      It is simply all non sustainable and yet it could have all been reasonably easy to balance out. I have often thought I will never see pension age before it all goes tits up completely and that does not bother me but what about the following generations?

  24. Bravo jonny

  25. It is way too late for dialectics or arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The corrupt have the upper hand,worldwide. Here,in our polluted little island,we have a wholly corrupt Parliament. They need to go….they know how much they are reviled and ridiculed. They are enacting fascist policies at a staggering rate in order to keep the public off-balance,cowed and fearful. They will use the Army,in the final analysis. It wouldn’t be the first time. What we are witnessing is the death throes of Capitalism,and wild beast that it is,it won’t go quietly. ConDem/Labour/Whatever are all cut from the same cloth. It’s becoming threadbare. Fascism is the ultimate expression of Capital,and that is what we are experiencing. It requires cohesive resistance.
    End of communique.

    • love1salluneed

      MiKi67 totally understand your comments. But the game is not over. I really do not believe that fascism will rule. There are too many people awake to the themes running through our society. Cohesive resistance yes, but not violence. That is what they want. Lawful disobedience is the only way to go. Total lack of any cooperation.

  26. love1salluneed

    IJohnny – if one cooperates with the oppressors one then becomes part of the problem and not the solution, a peaceful person will, therefore, always seek to disobey in a quiet peaceful manner, and if they are killed , or wounded they have given their life in truth and not lies. Lies and corruption are the true enemy.

    Lawful disobedience is about being disobedient to the tenets of a lesser law and one that is unjust, wrong or purely evil. Therefore, in this way, lawful disobedience is NOT a contracdiction in terms, although I understand and take on board the point you make.

    • Dying for peace is no more nobel than killing for peace. We won’t get out of this without fighting eventually, no-one ever has.

      • agreed johnny

        Ephemerid you said

        Meanwhile, all we can do make our protests the best we can. Unfortunately it looks like more people will have to die before anything changes.

        agreed and that’s what really worries me.

      • love1salluneed

        I agree. However death for a worthy reason is good, – I would far rather die for a real reason than suffer the indignities of illegal laws, rules regs and basically prison.

      • love1salluneed

        I disagree. Killing for any reason is not noble. Whereas dying for peace is a noble act. One truth people cannot seem to accept, and this is of course, their prerogative, is that love and kindness, understanding and empathy, compassion and care for others is what has got politicians into the position they are now – for the majority have none of these traits. Let alone honour, honesty and integrity.

        Killing anyone is not what we ought to be entertaining at all. Until we learn that one it will continue. So I would die for peace arguing for freedoms, rather than ‘take someone out’…………

        • LOVE1SALLUNEED

          My estranged family are all very religious and we do not stay in touch very much because of it, however I noticed last time we were in a heated argument regards citizens being killed to suit government aims I simply asked that surely from your religious perspective you must wish to make some sort of stand to such injustices? The reply, well pray to god and he will save you, so I said what without action I do not think so and the telephone was put down on me-)

    • well illustrated bb. pacifism is fine until someone aims a rifle at you. at that point not fighting back becomes an act of cowardice. how are you helping by just standing there and getting shot?

      no tyranny has ever been ended by purely peaceful measures. there’s a place for everything, including non-violence, but sometimes you have to show your teeth.

      • love1salluneed

        bbest : I am not religious, I am spiritual. I believe in harmony. You will never create harmony while violence is utilised. Sadly it seems your family mistanderstand what spirituality is.
        Johnny: Again I disagree with you. There is no cowardice in being a person of integrity and honour who refuses to kill or fight and who believes in love and harmony. You will never convince me otherwise, anymore than I will convince you, but this is not my job. My job is to remain true to what I feel is right. Once you give into the FEAR and fight, and say everyone who refuses is a coward, you are already won over – it is fear and intolerance that has got us into the current plight.

        To say no tryanny has ever been ended with purely peaceful measures does not mean it never will, and I firmly believe that until people respect and revere all life, these fears and conflicts will remain. It is a test of conscience and heart. Of our humanity, integrity and purpose.

        • LOVE1SALLUNEED

          everyone has the right to their own opinion and a way of being and I have no problem with that at all, what I do have a problem with is people who claim to stand for certain principles and use their religion to justify that and then blatantly ignore the abuses going on around them because they are not of the same religious fold I suspect.

          With attitudes like that it is no wonder its like pushing s…t uphill….

      • Johnny you said

        no tyranny has ever been ended by purely peaceful measures. there’s a place for everything, including non-violence, but sometimes you have to show your teeth.

        I agree and have said a million times that if the whole lot of do not revolt soon we are truly doomed.

  27. Johnny’s right about this.
    I’m inclined to think that the Bradford bye-election is less about Galloway and more about people being sick of mainstream politics. If Labour got rid of their entire front bench, brought in (or back) some real left-wingers, and performed a climbdown of heroic proportions by apologising for Iraq, welfare, etc. they might get something moving, but they won’t.
    The SNP is doing OK, and I expect Plaid to do well here in Wales at the local elections. It’ll be interesting to see how many indepedents stand – like the doctors – on single-issue tickets.
    Meanwhile, all we can do make our protests the best we can. Unfortunately it looks like more people will have to die before anything changes – and having witnessed riots, I hope they don’t erupt but I’m inclined to think they will. And with all the new rules and new equipment (ostensibly for the Olympics) there will be blood shed. Things are not good.

  28. ‘The SNP is doing OK’,

    the SNP is doing oki because it is a left of centre party, focussed on on small scale local issues(scottish ones), they are a young party, that does not have the complex bullshit baggage that so fucks up the labour party.

    They are also doing well because Alex Salmond is an excellent communicator, who knows how to spin it out, in a way that we love

  29. Ephemerid, in Wales do you hgave the standard, first past the post, voting system or have you got one of the new ones?

    • It’s FPTP for Westminster MP’s. Like Scotland.
      For the Welsh Assembly, it’s a sort of hybrid – 40 constituencies have an AM, then there are 5 regions each with 4.
      Voters get 3 votes – for the constituency, it’s FPTP; for the regions, it’s a quota system. The idea is that if any one party has loads of constituency AM’s, the regional ones will prevent any single party having all the seats. There’s a good explanation at http://www.bbc.co.uk-wales-13144202

      • eph: we have a similair thing up here, for our parly, i think it is a good system, for getting a more generalised set of politicians elected

  30. I’ve always thought the problems were to do with following neo-liberal agenda until I read this which states that actually it is the state control which causes such problems and we are seeing the increased iron-hold of the state, so I don’t know what the answer is. I do remember the 70s, by no means perfect, but having much more of a balance, between social democracy and free-enterprise:

    http://www.thecommentator.com/article/964/the_left_must_not_be_allowed_to_blame_neo_liberalism_for_a_crisis_of_social_democracy/page/2#article_content_top

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